Parachute payments.

[Joe Public]

Some clubs over here have relegation contingencies written into contracts. West Brom, for instance, who commute regularly between the Premiership and the Championship, have pay cut clauses in their contracts.

And some clubs (remember Bradford?) don't. Personally I trust the board not to be so stupid as to sign up big name players on long expensive contracts if we were to go up. It seems the Bradfords of this world have made PPs necessary by their financial incompetence, and in the process skewed the money supply in favour of relegated teams!

 

[Sneaky]

Is it a fair statement to say that if no Championship League club had the benefit of these ridiculous and in my opinion unfair payments of millions of pounds for a period of two seasons that probably/possibly PNE would have experienced premiership football by now?

At any one time, it is possible for six clubs (over 26% of the teams we are competing against for promotion) to be in possession of this huge amount of money, which obviously gives them a distinct advantage over the 18 clubs they are competing against.

What is the amount handed over to these clubs currently? 5m per season? or is it 10m per season?........and for two consecutive seasons.

Why not hand these clubs a five, six or eight point start and be done with it..😡.

I am not saying our club is perfect, nor obviously does this huge hand down of cash guarentee success, we only have to look at Leicester, Leeds, Forest, Charlton, Soton and Norwich to see that. But if they fail with that hand down of cash, that is their problem, no one esle's.

The truth of the matter is that the system is unfair, and without doubt has impaired clubs such as PNE's chances of taking that final step into the big time, even if possibly just for one magnificent season.

If the premiership has money to spare, then share it amongst all of the Football League clubs, the ones that really need it, not just the ones who motivatived by greed offer players long term premiership contracts that are all but impossible to meet if relegation happens.

Why reward stupidity?

Surely it's about time the fans/officials of the 72 Football League clubs stood up and challenged this unfair system of rewarding failure at their expense.

Get some cash together, employ some smart lawyers, and take the premiership to as high a court as can be afforded.

Surely this is unfair trading practice.

Brilliant point!!!!!

I heard Burnley were trying to challenge this through the courts??? Is this correct??

 

[HunterLionheart]

Even if teams don't go out and spend 40k a week on superstars, to get a good premiership footballer, you need to ofer good wages, and a reasonable conract for his security. This is just a fact or Premiership life

You know full well that a promoted side lke ourselves needs more than a handful 15-20 grand a week (High championship wage/low prem) signings to have a hope in hell of staying up.

Basically, if you want to ditch parachute payements, then you are saying that teams who go up do not deserve to try and stay there.

You say it would even the playing field in the Championship? Possibly, but it would mean it's not even worth going for promotion at all- we'd have no chance of staying there, so why bother?

 

[Joe Public]

Even if teams don't go out and spend 40k a week on superstars, to get a good premiership footballer, you need to ofer good wages, and a reasonable conract for his security. This is just a fact or Premiership life

You know full well that a promoted side lke ourselves needs more than a handful 15-20 grand a week (High championship wage/low prem) signings to have a hope in hell of staying up.

Basically, if you want to ditch parachute payements, then you are saying that teams who go up do not deserve to try and stay there.

You say it would even the playing field in the Championship? Possibly, but it would mean it's not even worth going for promotion at all- we'd have no chance of staying there, so why bother?

I don't see why people seem to believe that you have some kind of god-given right to exist in the Prem after promotion -- do you get parachute payments if you get relegated from the Championship? If not why not?

If the only reason for the payments is to level the playing field, that in itself states that the playing field itself is not level, unfair and should be changed.

 

[HunterLionheart]

There's no right to remain a club, but surely there's a right to make sure it's not a totally closed shop. 17 teams, then 3 clubs with championship players and wages every year?

The playing field is not level, but that's because Premiership football is worth so much in TV rights. Simple as that really. It's their money, and the fact that they are at least considering the implications of relegation shows at least some capacity to share.

To be blunt, why should PNE, Leeds or Rochdale recieve the cash earned by Premiership clubs for appearing on sky/setanta/match of the day?

It's not a far system, but it never will be- it's about money.

 

[jaymo]

There's no right to remain a club, but surely there's a right to make sure it's not a totally closed shop. 17 teams, then 3 clubs with championship players and wages every year?

The playing field is not level, but that's because Premiership football is worth so much in TV rights. Simple as that really. It's their money, and the fact that they are at least considering the implications of relegation shows at least some capacity to share.

To be blunt, why should PNE, Leeds or Rochdale recieve the cash earned by Premiership clubs for appearing on sky/setanta/match of the day?

It's not a far system, but it never will be- it's about money.

why should PNE be able to overspend year after year when other teams cant.

surely having TH willing to give us his money is unfair and should be abolished.

 

[jaymo]

You say my post is ridiculous but then agree with most of it. I'm saying money is at the root of the current malaise and parachute payments are a symptom of that. If the money wasn't so great then parachute payments wouldn't be needed. However I also argue that they are not needed anyway.

In France they have (or had) a system where if a team is relegated then everyone in the entire club takes a pay cut, that's players, coaches, youth team, cleaners, everyone. The current system just rewards failure where players on high wages who underperformed and got their club relegated still stick around coining it in. Reminds me of the current banking fat cats.

so if you think the money is such a problem, why are you paying your sky dues and contributing to the downfall of football.


I dont think anyone would disagree that in an ideal world (for a lower league club anyway, im sure many United and liverpool fans would disagree and lets face it, they are the ones who bring the money in.), the money would be redistributed and used to strengthen football as a whole, but it isnt and unfortunately it is the way it is.

the problem with all of these arguments is that no one can come up with a good valid reason as to why it is that despite the unfair parachute payments this league is more competitive then ever, and that just as many clubs struggle as benefit from them.


until someone, somewhere can give a decent account as to why that is, unfortunately I have to say that saying they are unfair and skew the playing field is total utter bollocks.

 

[Preben Elkjaer]

Even if teams don't go out and spend 40k a week on superstars, to get a good premiership footballer, you need to ofer good wages, and a reasonable conract for his security. This is just a fact or Premiership life

You know full well that a promoted side lke ourselves needs more than a handful 15-20 grand a week (High championship wage/low prem) signings to have a hope in hell of staying up.

Basically, if you want to ditch parachute payements, then you are saying that teams who go up do not deserve to try and stay there.

You say it would even the playing field in the Championship? Possibly, but it would mean it's not even worth going for promotion at all- we'd have no chance of staying there, so why bother?

QFT. 😎

Albertan still won't get it loike...

 

[jakehake]

I don't see why people seem to believe that you have some kind of god-given right to exist in the Prem after promotion -- do you get parachute payments if you get relegated from the Championship? If not why not?

There is a parachute payment yes. Pitiful in comparison but there is one

 

[noelpne]

why should PNE be able to overspend year after year when other teams cant.

surely having TH willing to give us his money is unfair and should be abolished.

I know your'e playing Devils Advocate with your above statements - but lets not confuse any individual Club Boards inputs/gifts to their Club - with this SKY-negotiated-with-the Football Parachute Payments 'system'.

It ain't the same thing - and personally I believe that you know that-and maybe trying to 'muddy the waters' of the arguement/discussion here ?

 

[Joe Public]

There is a parachute payment yes. Pitiful in comparison but there is one

There you go.

Remeber the Pheonix league? Should that stupid idea be resurrected? Sure it will be unfair on League 1 and League 2 but fuck it, it's our teams who bring in the TV cash.

In fact why not go the whole hog and have each league being worth 10 or 20 times what the one below is, that will make it 'fair'.

 

[noelpne]

" I don't see why people seem to believe that you have some kind of god-given right to exist in the Prem after promotion "

I don't think anyone on here 'seems to believe' that Relegation should be scrapped, "just because" we went up.

" -- do you get parachute payments if you get relegated from the Championship? If not why not? "

I'm sure you know why not.

Because you know that it's SKY who give the Parachute Payments.

And I'm sure you are aware those Parachute Payments are to keep/reinforce the 'status quo' of the Premiership Teams - that 'Status Quo'.

SKY are in the business of making money from their subscribers - who'd prefer to watch the must-be-admitted higher quality of games seen in the Premiership - rather than eg. Lincoln V Grimsby. That's why not.

Yes, it's a closed-shop .


And discourages people in the smaller Cities And Towns from suporting their Local Club & instead buy an (eg) Liverpool shirt.

Now , - whether you think that the above scenario is the SAME THING as an individual Chairman or Director pumpig money intot their local club - depends on whether you think the same way as say, Jaymo, on here.


It's pretty obvious to me that it isn't.





" If the only reason for the payments is to level the playing field, that in itself states that the playing field itself is not level, unfair and should be changed. "

Payments could never 'level the playing field' - there would have to be many, many strings attached to them for that to happen. Players certainly would feel aggrieved if there was a return to the Maximum Wage - but that's what would have to happen to level-things-out just a tad.

 

[jaymo]

I know your'e playing Devils Advocate with your above statements - but lets not confuse any individual Club Boards inputs/gifts to their Club - with this SKY-negotiated-with-the Football Parachute Payments 'system'.

It ain't the same thing - and personally I believe that you know that-and maybe trying to 'muddy the waters' of the arguement/discussion here ?

All im trying to say is, people are using that a club "should live within its means" as an argument agianst parachute payments, yet PNE as a club dont live within their means and havent for years, but we have uncle trev to back us up so thats ok?

the fact is the money that the PL negotiate from sky/setanta is the premier leagues moeny to distribute as they see fit, yet we are telling them how they should spend it. Yet say uncle trev should put his hands in his pocket for a promotion push and theres outrage because you cant tell someone how to spend their money (quite rightly).

I think some people forget exactly what the premier league is and who governs them.

 

[White Womble]

All im trying to say is, people are using that a club "should live within its means" as an argument agianst parachute payments, yet PNE as a club dont live within their means and havent for years,.

We have just about haven't we, by selling a player a season to balance the books until last season when TH's & FoPNE's soft loans became available?

 

[jaymo]

We have just about haven't we, by selling a player a season to balance the books until last season when TH's & FoPNE's soft loans became available?

So TH only put in money last season. We've gone 10m in debt to them in the space of 12 months? really?

and, if we are to take that as true, surely a club spending a percentage of their income. i.e. hull spending 4m on Bullard is spending within their means, becasue they have the income.

ive used the analogy before but take Middlesbrough as an example, should they only ever spend based on their income from gates or merchandise because theres a chance they may have been relegated?

 

[noelpne]

"So if you think the money is such a problem, why are you paying your sky dues and contributing to the downfall of football."


( I now yu were addresing an individual on here, but ) - I don't patronise SKY.

Wouldn't consider it.

I don't believe in monopolies in Media, for one thing - and don't like the top players obscene wages for another. Thirdly, I also don't like the way SKY has monopolised other sports like Cricket, either. Don't get me started on Nepotism V. Meritocracies , either.


" I dont think anyone would disagree that in an ideal world (for a lower league club anyway, IM SURE MANY UNITED AND LIVERPOOL FANS WOULD DISAGREE AND LET'S FACE IT, THEY ARE THE ONES THAT BRING THE MONEY IN), the money would be redistributed and used to strengthen football as a whole, but it isnt and unfortunately it is the way it is."

Re - Capitalled statement.

Q. Do you mean by"bring the money in" - in to those two clubs - to add to the pot for the Players ( rather
oot) Wage at those 'Big 4' clubs?

Q. Do you mean those Utd & Scouse Fans that go to Old Trafford & Anfield - even though
that may mean a fortnightly 'pilgramage' from say, Lincoln - or Preston ?

Q. Do you mean by "bring the money in" - that money into SKY via their subscriptions?



May I suggest that people should be encouraged to support their Local Clubs ?
And that perhaps the standards of the Leagues as a whole would benefit if people didn't
accept that following a 'Big Four' is counter-productive to their community , and that 'Glory
Hunting' couch-fans are people who, perhaps - are people who care LESS about supporting their towns local facilities than basking in some idea of the refllected glow from the e.g. Champions League Trophy ?

" The problem with all of these arguments is that no one can come up with a good valid reason as to why it is that despite the unfair parachute payments this league is more competitive then ever, and that just as many clubs struggle as benefit from them. "

Perhaps the Championship standard is Going Down from what it used to be, from , say 5 years ago ? It's debatable - I know that - I dont think it's as skilful. but if the Champ. Clubs with already-bigger-by up-to ten-thousand fans get PP's on top of that.....


" Until someone, somewhere can give a decent account as to why that is, unfortunately I have to say that saying they are unfair and skew the playing field is total utter bollocks."

But if some Champ clubs with already-bigger by over-10-thousand fans ger PP's on top of that.....

How is that ' bollocks' ? It's just adding to any differential.

Surely it's Achievement that should be rewared - ( by giving/adding the PP money to the
top-two plus the Play-Off winner?

NOT the relegated three, FFS.

Please see responses , inserted.

 

[jakehake]

So TH only put in money last season. We've gone 10m in debt to them in the space of 12 months? really??

Yes, or thereabouts, 20 months probably closer

RNS Number : 2313I Preston North End PLC 14 November 2008

Preston North End plc

("Preston North End" or the "Company")

Loan Agreements

The Company confirms today that it is finalising the terms of two loan agreements to be made between the Company and (i) the Friends of Preston North End Limited and (ii) Guild Ventures Limited which will govern the terms of two loans totalling £7.1 million (the "Loans") (of which £990,000 has been advanced by Friends of Preston North End Limited and the remainder has been advanced by Guild Ventures Limited) (the "Loan Agreements").

£4.6 million of the Loans were drawn down in the financial year ended 30 June 2008, with the balance drawn down in the period since the year end date.

ive used the analogy before but take Middlesbrough as an example, should they only ever spend based on their income from gates or merchandise because theres a chance they may have been relegated?

Isn't Gibson some form of sugar daddy to them? (No idea just thought he had chucked money at them for quite a while)

 

[Albertan]

if we went up and signed 3 2.5m players on deals at say 25k a wekk, that is living in our means becuase our income from TV rights allows it. when we get relegated thats not sustainable.


are you suggesting that every club in the premier league should only spend what income they receive minus tv rights? maybe we should do that at the moment, we'll see how long it is before we go down to league one.


its amazing that you are campaigning for teams to live within their means yet we are overspending to the tune of whatever it is a season and are 20m in debt because of it. I havent heard you lambasting derek or TH for giving us money that is blatantly unfair to some of the other clubs in this division.

Who pays for Barnsleys yearly shortfall.


all of you arguments have serious flaws in them for one reason, you are looking at it from the perspective of a fan of a club who havent received the parachute payments, some of us are trying to look at the bigger picture and what they mean to all clubs not just PNE.

I have just laid out how a club could get relegated from the prem and still survive............now you come back with fanciful ideas of signing x amount of players on x amount of wages that wouldn't be sustainable in the championship division??????????

The salaries would be sustainable if they were on one year contracts or contracts that would be honoured whilst PNE were in the prem, and adjusted upon relegation.

And if the players wouldn't sign that deal, then we don't sign the players, end of story.

I am talking about chairmen running a club WITHIN THEIR MEANS OR AS NEAR AS POSSIBLE TO IT. How many times do I have to repeat myself?

And this is the first time I have heard we are 20m in debt.

As we all know, there is debt, and there is manageable debt, everyone of us owes someone money, even countries owe money, I am talking about controlled debt.

You seem very keen to allow other (usually bigger) clubs this unfair advantage over smaller clubs like PNE, well that's all fine and dandy, as long as you don't join the bandwagon of people who come on here complaining about North End's "lack of ambition".

And as far as my arguments being flawed, so what, everyones arguments can be proven flawed, but it just so happens I am trying to talk sense, but unfortunately in this day and age when football is all about money money money, and people are now used to the status quo, small clubs like Preston North End are being pushed back further and further into the football wilderness...........and anyone who challenges the current situation is accused by people like you of offering flawed arguments.🙄

Removing what I consider to be immoral payments of millions of pounds to clubs who actually failed in a higher division just to make their lives that bit easier upon relegation to the championship division gives them a distinct advantage over the other clubs who don't have access to that cash................AND THAT'S ALL THERE IS TO IT.

And if you can't see the difference between TH "LENDING PNE CASH, NOTE LENDING NOT GIVING" and these parachute payments being "GIVEN, NOT THE WORD GIVEN" then that is your problem, not mine.

Or are you now going to tell me that the clubs who receive these parachute payments some day have to pay them back.....🙄.

And you accuse me of having "flawed arguments"......give me a break!

 

[Albertan]

its ridiculous, either that or we have someone sat in canada telling us how parachute payments make it unfair but refuses to come up for a decent explanation as to how us and other clubs in our position continue to compete and clubs with the benefit of them contiune to sturggle to compete.

I dont prefess to be an expert or know everything there is to know (in fact soem poitns have been made here which are very interesting and have surprised me) but I do take an interest in football and football politics, so at least I have some base knowledge to base my opinions, some people seem to have based their opinions on tired cliches.

It's always the first sign that someone on here is getting the feeling they are losing the debate when the location of the person's residence that they are debating with is mentioned.

What the fuck does it matter whether I live in Freckleton, Longridge or Canada jaymo?.................just stick to the principle of the debate or keep out of it.

And the reason why we continue to compete without the aid of parachute payments has to be because we on the whole must be a well run football club.

You say I refuse to come up with reasons about the above, well as far as I can see that is the first time I have been asked the question.

You really should stop making things up as you go along just to try and reinforce your argument.

By the same token, I could ask the question that if PNE WITHOUT PARACHUTE PAYMENTS continue to challenge for a play off place more or less every season, what would happen to our chances WITH A FREE 10M FOR TWO CONSECUTIVE SEASONS...............and please note the words FREE 10M, not borrowed, no interest to be paid, no responsibility to the doner of the money as to how it was spent etc etc.

Here is a wild guess at an answer for you:

ARE CHANCES OF PROMOTION WOULD INCREASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you agree or disagree..........no lecture about your interest in 'football politics' please 🙄.............just a yes or a no will suffice.

 

[jaymo]

You seem very keen to allow other (usually bigger) clubs this unfair advantage over smaller clubs like PNE, well that's all fine and dandy, as long as you don't join the bandwagon of people who come on here complaining about North End's "lack of ambition".

And as far as my arguments being flawed, so what, everyones arguments can be proven flawed, but it just so happens I am trying to talk sense, but unfortunately in this day and age when football is all about money money money, and people are now used to the status quo, small clubs like Preston North End are being pushed back further and further into the football wilderness...........and anyone who challenges the current situation is accused by people like you of offering flawed arguments.🙄

firstly, what the fuck does the fact they are bigger have to do with it? in fact, As i stated previously (and you failed to aknowledge ... AGAIN) most of the yo yo clubs are bigger then us, and they are yo yo clubs for that reason, not because of the PP.

as for your second statement, show me anywhere were ive said I dont think the influx of money into football is a problem (dont waste your time, you wont be able to because i havent), but im a realist and I can see what happening and I can see that PPs are a necessary evil until somethings done about it. You accuse me of not reading your posts, well there you go, right back at you you moronic cunt.

yet agian you've said that are pushing small clubs like PNE further and further back and yet agian you've failed to even attempt to explain how clubs like us, swansea, cardiff, bristol city, burnley are here again, competing for promotion? and why clubs like Norwich and Soton are battling off relegation? and that a division with a mix of teams who benefitted from PPs and those who havent is more competitve then ever?

you cant answer these questions, thats why your argument about them being completly unfair (in the current climate) is complete bollocks.