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Attack, attack, attack, attack, attack

Attack, attack, attack, attack, attack

White123 said:
I'm just pointing out the obvious - it's not creating chances which is the problem it's scoring them.
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We sort of agree with each other. What I was trying to say is we need men on the pitch who know how to finish off chances.

To me that means Maguire is first name on the team sheet but he clearly needs help up top and I would give Moult a run in the side with Maguire for the rest of the season. If that pays off, we may even still make the play offs. If it doesn't, I don't really care if we come 8th or 15th.

My main criticism is of the Robinson role. Not picking on him specifically as a player, but this idea that running around a lot, pressing, increasing possession and then not scoring goals is good baffles me.

My argument is simply make less chances but have more blokes in the box who know how to score.
 
Tino said:
I've been saying for a while he should be on the left and Bodin on the right, but tucked in where he can be a goal threat, but on the other hand if some of the other midfielders had the same assist and goals record as Barkhuizen then we'd probably already be top 6.
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Did you go to Reading on Saturday? If not then we ran this formation, with Bodin looking very dangerous and Barkhuizen being anonymous.

Looking at stats in football doesn't always tell the full picture, or at least face value stats.

I compared some key stats averaged over 90 minutes for Barkhuizen and Robinson and Horgan's 16/17 season. All 3 have the same scoring rate, But Horgan and Robinson create more chances.

All 3 have an almost identical scoring rate, and Barkhuizen is again bottom when it comes to assists per 90 minutes.

So yeah Barkhuizen does lead the other guys in assists and goals, but thats warped because he has played 50% more minutes than Robinson.

Finally, and most tellingly, Barkhuizen's succesful take on percentage is 53%, Robinson is at 65% and finally Horgan at 75%

The guy is performing way below the level of his alternatives yet still starts every game
 
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Lee Trundle said:
Did you go to Reading on Saturday? If not then we ran this formation, with Bodin looking very dangerous and Barkhuizen being anonymous.

Looking at stats in football doesn't always tell the full picture, or at least face value stats.

I compared some key stats averaged over 90 minutes for Barkhuizen and Robinson and Horgan's 16/17 season. All 3 have the same scoring rate, But Horgan and Robinson create more chances.

All 3 have an almost identical scoring rate, and Barkhuizen is again bottom when it comes to assists per 90 minutes.

So yeah Barkhuizen does lead the other guys in assists and goals, but thats warped because he has played 50% more minutes than Robinson.

Finally, and most tellingly, Barkhuizen's succesful take on percentage is 53%, Robinson is at 65% and finally Horgan at 75%

The guy is performing way below the level of his alternatives yet still starts every game
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Interesting stats.

I do suspect that an impact sub is always likely to have much better 'per minute' stats for things like this.
 
Regardless said:
Interesting stats.

I do suspect that an impact sub is always likely to have much better 'per minute' stats for things like this.
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Fully agree, thats why i used the example of both Horgan (an impact sub) and Robbo (starter)

I like having Barky in the squad, he should make the 18 every week for me, but i think we have missed out on using him as an impact sub. His pace can stretch tired defences, but as a starter we should rotate in the more efficient technical players.
 
Regardless said:
Interesting stats. I do suspect that an impact sub is always likely to have much better 'per minute' stats for things like this.
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Agreed. Are the stats really for the 2016/17 season as stated? Or is he comparing Horgan last season to Barky this season? It's confusing.

Seems unfair considering Barky scored 6 in 12 starts last year. And the fact he's had a hand in 15 goals this season. And created 40+ goal scoring chances from open play (according to the BBC). Nevermind he had an illness for several weeks/months.

For me Robinson simply misses too many chances. No matter what stats anyone wants to use. He's scored once with his feet all season. Failing to score from 1 yard the other week.

I want to see Moult, Maguire, Barkhuizen and Bodin as our front four attackers. With Harrop getting more game time. Seen enough of Robinson for one season.

When he's used as a simple wide player asked to take on his full back and cross, he can be effective. Much more than when he's prancing around in the centre avoiding challenges and taking tame shots that more often go wide than anything.
 
Dreyfuss said:
Agreed. Are the stats really for the 2016/17 season as stated? Or is he comparing Horgan last season to Barky this season? It's confusing.

Seems unfair considering Barky scored 6 in 12 starts last year. And the fact he's had a hand in 15 goals this season. And created 40+ goal scoring chances from open play (according to the BBC). Nevermind he had an illness for several weeks/months.

For me Robinson simply misses too many chances. No matter what stats anyone wants to use. He's scored once with his feet all season. Failing to score from 1 yard the other week.

I want to see Moult, Maguire, Barkhuizen and Bodin as our front four attackers. With Harrop getting more game time. Seen enough of Robinson for one season.

When he's used as a simple wide player asked to take on his full back and cross, he can be effective. Much more than when he's prancing around in the centre avoiding challenges and taking tame shots that more often go wide than anything.
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I used 17/18 stats for Robinson/Bark but the 16/17 stats for Horgan. He hasnt played enough minutes this year so his stats are warped in some areas.

Barkhuizen may have created 40 chances from open play, but hes played nearly 40 games, most as a starter. That's one chance created a game, and when we have Alan Browne playing at a 10 we need more than that from our wingers.

Also what the hell does it matter that Robinson has only scored one with his feet, you dont get double points for that you know? If he's scoring with his head at his size that tells you one thing, he makes good runs and takes up good positions in the box.

Agree regards Harrop and Moult though, I think they are both good players with a lot to add to the side
 
Lee Trundle said:
Fully agree, thats why i used the example of both Horgan (an impact sub) and Robbo (starter)

I like having Barky in the squad, he should make the 18 every week for me, but i think we have missed out on using him as an impact sub. His pace can stretch tired defences, but as a starter we should rotate in the more efficient technical players.
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I think you make a good point.
 
Lee Trundle said:
I used 17/18 stats for Robinson/Bark but the 16/17 stats for Horgan. He hasnt played enough minutes this year so his stats are warped in some areas.

Barkhuizen may have created 40 chances from open play, but hes played nearly 40 games, most as a starter. That's one chance created a game, and when we have Alan Browne playing at a 10 we need more than that from our wingers.

Also what the hell does it matter that Robinson has only scored one with his feet, you dont get double points for that you know? If he's scoring with his head at his size that tells you one thing, he makes good runs and takes up good positions in the box.

Agree regards Harrop and Moult though, I think they are both good players with a lot to add to the side
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Not sure using last season's stats for one player is fair at all. When we were playing counter attacking football both Horgan and Barky looked better overall. Under AN Barky picks up the ball with two players to beat more often than not.

As for Robinson's scoring with his feet he probably has more shots on goal than anyone. His conversion rate is poor. Plain and simple. I think it matters. Surprised someone who wants to deal with selective stats is unwillingly to recognise it.
 
Lee Trundle said:
Did you go to Reading on Saturday? If not then we ran this formation, with Bodin looking very dangerous and Barkhuizen being anonymous.

Looking at stats in football doesn't always tell the full picture, or at least face value stats.

I compared some key stats averaged over 90 minutes for Barkhuizen and Robinson and Horgan's 16/17 season. All 3 have the same scoring rate, But Horgan and Robinson create more chances.

All 3 have an almost identical scoring rate, and Barkhuizen is again bottom when it comes to assists per 90 minutes.

So yeah Barkhuizen does lead the other guys in assists and goals, but thats warped because he has played 50% more minutes than Robinson.

Finally, and most tellingly, Barkhuizen's succesful take on percentage is 53%, Robinson is at 65% and finally Horgan at 75%

The guy is performing way below the level of his alternatives yet still starts every game
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So why is the manager leaving Horgan in the stands every week?
 
Dreyfuss said:
Not sure using last season's stats for one player is fair at all. When we were playing counter attacking football both Horgan and Barky looked better overall. Under AN Barky picks up the ball with two players to beat more often than not.

As for Robinson's scoring with his feet he probably has more shots on goal than anyone. His conversion rate is poor. Plain and simple. I think it matters. Surprised someone who wants to deal with selective stats is unwillingly to recognise it.
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Agree regarding the fallibility of the stats, but you dont get perfect comparisons in sports. What other stats could i have used for Horgan he just hasnt had game time against the same level of competition as Barkhuizen has this season.

You are correct with Robinson, he has far too many efforts from outisde the box, which amount to nothing. But he loses the ball when dribbling far less than Barkhuizen, and takes more players on. Its just that when Robinson cuts inside and balloons it 30 yards over the bar, its a lot more memorable than Barky's 20 yard first touch to the opposing left back.
 
Lee Trundle said:
Agree regarding the fallibility of the stats, but you dont get perfect comparisons in sports. What other stats could i have used for Horgan he just hasnt had game time against the same level of competition as Barkhuizen has this season.

You are correct with Robinson, he has far too many efforts from outisde the box, which amount to nothing. But he loses the ball when dribbling far less than Barkhuizen, and takes more players on. Its just that when Robinson cuts inside and balloons it 30 yards over the bar, its a lot more memorable than Barky's 20 yard first touch to the opposing left back.
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I eouldnt of used the stats due to the fact under Grayson both Barky and Horgan looked much more threatening. If anything combine last season and this seasons data would of been fairer.
 
We can discuss all day (that's what the forum is for) but AN makes the call. When he's right we are happy; when it goes pear shaped we moan.
Life as a fan with a forum.
Hope he gets it right tonight whatever the team/bench.
 
Tino said:
So why is the manager leaving Horgan in the stands every week?
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Maybe he doesn't rate him the same way i do, and by virtue of the fact he has worked in football for a large portion of his life, he has more chance of being correct than i do. None of that makes his decision correct.

Misjudgements happen in sports all the time. Its the reason Vardy was playing for Stocksbridge Park Steels, why Tom Brady was nearly cut by the New England Patriots having been drafted at 198th overall, why Pogba was released from United, why Arsenal let go of Yaya Toure.

Hell Ben Pearson didnt even make the squad first season in the championship, he comes in and within 6 months he's our best player.

Point is smart football coaches and scouts miss on top talent regularly. Lets take the Pogba, Toure and Brady examples, who were the coaches who let them go:

Alex Ferguson (Best manager in PL history)
Arsene Wenger (At the time of Toure's release arguably the second best coach in premier league history)
Bill Belicheck (Most superbowl wins of any coach period)

All of these top guys whiffed on major superstars of their respective sports.

Im not saying Horgan is going to be anything close to any of those guys, but one managers judgment does not define a player
 
Lee Trundle said:
Maybe he doesn't rate him the same way i do, and by virtue of the fact he has worked in football for a large portion of his life, he has more chance of being correct than i do. None of that makes his decision correct.

Misjudgements happen in sports all the time. Its the reason Vardy was playing for Stocksbridge Park Steels, why Tom Brady was nearly cut by the New England Patriots having been drafted at 198th overall, why Pogba was released from United, why Arsenal let go of Yaya Toure.

Hell Ben Pearson didnt even make the squad first season in the championship, he comes in and within 6 months he's our best player.

Point is smart football coaches and scouts miss on top talent regularly. Lets take the Pogba, Toure and Brady examples, who were the coaches who let them go:

Alex Ferguson (Best manager in PL history)
Arsene Wenger (At the time of Toure's release arguably the second best coach in premier league history)
Bill Belicheck (Most superbowl wins of any coach period)

All of these top guys whiffed on major superstars of their respective sports.

Im not saying Horgan is going to be anything close to any of those guys, but one managers judgment does not define a player
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I think that consciously or not managers have favourites.They are after all only human.
 
Dreyfuss said:
I eouldnt of used the stats due to the fact under Grayson both Barky and Horgan looked much more threatening. If anything combine last season and this seasons data would of been fairer.
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I understand that, but Barkhuizen is always going to perform better in a side with a McGeady style player in it, because players like McGeady create the one thing Barkhuizen thrives off: space.

Horgan is a neater tidier player, who much like Bodin, can work in tighter corridors and still remain productive. That is what we are at the moment, we need players who can operate without space because we dont create much of it anymore.

Space does appear towards the latter stages of games, when defenders are lagging, and there is not a player in the squad who id rather use as an impact sub in those situations than Barkhuizen. But as a regular starter, i dont think he has done enough to cement his place
 
Barky does seem to have a bit of a charmed life when it comes to selection.Perhaps as others have suggested it may be down to training.
 
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