Garbage

[Tugg Speedman]

On the match day thread someone was panicking because we are in the bottom 3 of the form table.

We were in the top 3 or 4 of the form table earlier in the season, but folk were saying we should not read anything into it.

It's not surprising that a poor run of results attracts so much negative energy and attention, compared to the smaller amount of positive energy and attention from our magnificent results and form earlier in the season. It's so much easier to be negative as it doesn't require any strength.

It also appears to be ok for folk to be negative and talk about things like relegation, or amassing more points than the bottom 3 clubs. Yet only recently other folk were criticised for being positive, optimistic and having belief in the squad.

I much prefer to be positive and optimistic. We are going through a bad run at the moment, which IMO is down to a combination of things including loss of confidence and self belief, the young average age of the squad, fatigue, injuries, suspensions.

Injuries alone are not a excuse. But at the same time you can't just dismiss all the injuries and suspensions that have decimated our first team. Last night against Bolton not only were we missing 4 first team defenders (Cunningham, Earl, Fisher, Davies) we were also without both our first choice strikers.

It was vital that we didn't concede any soft goals yesterday and we didn't, so thats a starting point. It wasn't pretty, but needs must. We have two tough away games coming up and as fans we have to be strong, win lose or draw. If we start to panic or throw the towel in then there will only be one outcome.

 

[JK]

I would suggest, as I have done previously, that this is a 6 month maybe 12 months audition tops for a lot of our players.

Some have adapted with ease whilst others simply cannot adapt to the change. Not saying that they are poor players, just that they are not adaptable.

Understand it for what it is. Be massive changes between now and Aug 5th 2018.

KTF.

This is spot on JD.

Our first 12/13 players stepped up to the mark and adapted well and we where playing some great stuff. However as Neil has alluded to it is very clear to see that some of the "sqaud" players have not been able to adapt and in some cases just are not good enough at this level to challenge.

We simply can not ignore the injury list. Neil is having to play lads that wouldn't get anywhere near the side in normal circumstances. It is also worth noting that Clarke was on the bench who isn't anywhere near match fit and the less said about Pringle the better.

Woods stepped up to the plate having only trained one day because Marnick Anderton Vemjil is supposedly injured.......again......

We started off brightly last night with Stephy and Bark getting plenty of the ball, however Bolton got wise to this and their full backs prevented us from doing that. Sadly we then resorted to playing balls up to Stephy as if he was Hugill and I think its clear he's a different type of player. Had Stephy had chance to work with us for the last two weeks instead of being away I think it might have been slightly better.

We will be bringing in players in January... it is a case of getting through to then and pick up as many points as we can to try and stay in contention. Worth remembering Neil has only been involved with one permanent signing since he arrived.

It's not his squad.

The last few weeks have been very frustrating and is disappointing following our great start but we have to put things in context.

As JD says Keep the Faith.

 

[mapping]

On the match day thread someone was panicking because we are in the bottom 3 of the form table.

We were in the top 3 or 4 of the form table earlier in the season, but folk were saying we should not read anything into it.

It's not surprising that a poor run of results attracts so much negative energy and attention, compared to the smaller amount of positive energy and attention from our magnificent results and form earlier in the season. It's so much easier to be negative as it doesn't require any strength.

It also appears to be ok for folk to be negative and talk about things like relegation, or amassing more points than the bottom 3 clubs. Yet only recently other folk were criticised for being positive, optimistic and having belief in the squad.

I much prefer to be positive and optimistic. We are going through a bad run at the moment, which IMO is down to a combination of things including loss of confidence and self belief, the young average age of the squad, fatigue, injuries, suspensions.

Injuries alone are not a excuse. But at the same time you can't just dismiss all the injuries and suspensions that have decimated our first team. Last night against Bolton not only were we missing 4 first team defenders (Cunningham, Earl, Fisher, Davies) we were without both our first choice strikers.

It was vital that we didn't concede any soft goals yesterday and we didn't, so thats a starting point. It wasn't pretty, but needs must. We have two tough away games coming up and as fans we have to be strong, win lose or draw. If we start to panic or throw the towel in then there will only be one outcome.

I believe that would be called a Self-fulfilling prophecy for some. I agree we have to try and stay positive but christ its testing.

 

[IanBogie9]

We did just about ok given key players out. Rubbish game. Shame it was on Sky too.


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[Jack Daniels]

Let me try and understand what you are saying here Jack.

AN is looking at who fits his style of play best , those who are adaptable and can play his system stay , the rest we ship out and do a rebuild of the squad ?

That is how I correctly see it. Some players can play the Grayson way, some can play the Neil way, some can play both ways whilst others can't.

Not a case of them being poor. A case of their skill set being positioned and fashioned for one skill set only. Alan Browne and Ben Pearson, as 2 prime examples, have stepped up to be able to play both styles as required.

A lot of it is probably mental as well as natural ability.

Some players thrive under one system and sink under another whilst those drowning suddenly reach the surface.

Interesting times.

 

[mapping]

That is how I correctly see it. Some players can play the Grayson way, some can play the Neil way, some can play both ways whilst others can't.

Not a case of them being poor. A case of their skill set being positioned and fashioned for one skill set only. Alan Browne And Ben Pearson, as 2 prime examples, have stepped up to be able to play both styles as required.

A lot of it is probably mental as well as natural ability.

Some players thrive uber one system and sink under another whilst those drowning suddenly reach the surface.

Interesting times.

Sorry I edited my post after you replied ,

EDIT: Actually , what your saying given thought , makes perfect sence , but do we have the finances to do that, would that also mean breaking the mould of "free " young talent to be nurtured ? A model I though could have , and was working to a degree.

I am seeing your way of thinking , and only time will tell if it will work, will certainly be more apparent with a fully fit squad. like my edit says , just not sure we have the money to do it.

 

[sedgwick__7]

Our first 12/13 players stepped up to the mark and adapted well and we where playing some great stuff. However as Neil has alluded to it is very clear to see that some of the "sqaud" players have not been able to adapt and in some cases just are not good enough at this level to challenge.

Spot on. It's been a disappointing run and soon enough it may be 2 full calendar months since we won a game, but in the long run it may help us as it will have told Neil an awful lot about some of these squad players who weren't playing much early on. Other than Maguire, none of these recently signed Irish lads really look up to the mark in this league. Gallagher started well last night but was knackered by the second half. We need much better squad depth if we're going to compete in this division and I'm sure they'll be trying to add come January.

I think Neil is a bit rigid at times too with his system but in fairness he doesn't have the option to change it really. We hardly have any strikers at the club even when they're all fit, and the only attacking changes we can make are like for like on the wings and it never changes anything.

That is how I correctly see it. Some players can play the Grayson way, some can play the Neil way, some can play both ways whilst others can't.

Not a case of them being poor. A case of their skill set being positioned and fashioned for one skill set only. Alan Browne and Ben Pearson, as 2 prime examples, have stepped up to be able to play both styles as required.

Whilst he's dropped off a tad in recent weeks and was dropped last night, I would include Johnson in that too. For the large part he's been excellent so far this season and looks seriously better suited to a Neil team than a Grayson one.

 

[ernest]

Other than Maguire, none of these recently signed Irish lads really look up to the mark in this league.

Boyle and O'Connor are beginning to look defensively sound but not much else - Davies and Earl are a class above. Horgan has energy but lacks any real quality - as I said elsewhere I think he and Robinson bring a complementary set of attributes with them when used as a double substitution option against tiring opposition but for the moment that is as much as we can expect. Of the two Robinson has the ability to develop into a regular starter, Horgan I suspect does not.

 

[marsbars]

This is spot on JD.

Our first 12/13 players stepped up to the mark and adapted well and we where playing some great stuff. However as Neil has alluded to it is very clear to see that some of the "sqaud" players have not been able to adapt and in some cases just are not good enough at this level to challenge.

We simply can not ignore the injury list. Neil is having to play lads that wouldn't get anywhere near the side in normal circumstances. It is also worth noting that Clarke was on the bench who isn't anywhere near match fit and the less said about Pringle the better.

Woods stepped up to the plate having only trained one day because Marnick Anderton Vemjil is supposedly injured.......again......

We started off brightly last night with Stephy and Bark getting plenty of the ball, however Bolton got wise to this and their full backs prevented us from doing that. Sadly we then resorted to playing balls up to Stephy as if he was Hugill and I think its clear he's a different type of player. Had Stephy had chance to work with us for the last two weeks instead of being away I think it might have been slightly better.

We will be bringing in players in January... it is a case of getting through to then and pick up as many points as we can to try and stay in contention. Worth remembering Neil has only been involved with one permanent signing since he arrived.

It's not his squad.

The last few weeks have been very frustrating and is disappointing following our great start but we have to put things in context.

As JD says Keep the Faith.

Spot on. As disappointed as I have been over the last few weeks, it will get better 🙂

 

[Oldbutnotdone]

Went on tonight and all this talk about Alex Neil taking us to another level a few weeks ago, well that's a load of bull shit, worst game for years! No plan b never really changes formation. Seemed to me like he wants to play from the back but some of the balls maxwell was made to play out were suicide, barkhuizen needs to be more involved centrally imo like last season he is our best player next game up top with hugill 4 4 2 please Mr Neil

#footballtacticaleducation

When playing out from the keeper the opponents will close off the central defenders to stop a pass. So the defensive midfield (Pearson) drops off to collect the ball drawing one or both opponents toward them. The Defensive midfielder either plays direct to the keeper to pass out to the free defender or the DMF passes out to the free defender directly. Space is created for the attacking midfield (DFM marker will follow them to the ball to stop them turning creating a space in front of the attacking midfield). The channels are more open due to the forward line being played by the opposition and the tendency to move across to fill the void left by the marker following the DMF towards the ball.

It always looks a bit risky but it's rehearsed. Pearson made it look a little more risky by playing the pass wide rather than back to Maxwell on occasions probably because the Bolton front two Preferred to cover the pass back.

 

[Mer5eywhite]

+1 some people seem to be missing the point that at least 4/5 of that team are filling in.
They are not his first team and some are way off the pace. The Irish lads are miles away from this level, Brown apart.
Keeping faith and satisfied with a draw against a big strong Bolton side.

So are we saying that the Irish revolution has left us with several players who aren't up to it?

 

[Durutti]

do you go on every match? because I have seen worse than that under Alex Neil 😀

Me too. I'm here to get slated by the 'oh you horrible man you' but I think Neil might be a shite manager. He certainly can't see massive weaknesses in his tactics or adapt them.

 

[paolo poggi]

That is how I correctly see it. Some players can play the Grayson way, some can play the Neil way, some can play both ways whilst others can't.
Not a case of them being poor. A case of their skill set being positioned and fashioned for one skill set only. Alan Browne and Ben Pearson, as 2 prime examples, have stepped up to be able to play both styles as required.
A lot of it is probably mental as well as natural ability.
Some players thrive under one system and sink under another whilst those drowning suddenly reach the surface.
Interesting times.

Neil, without doubt, understands the concept of putting the right pegs in their corresponding holes. However, Neil's experience in the game does not prevent him from being guilty of John Beck-esque stubbornness when it comes to his rigid obsession with a tactical plan. A long career in football will give a player plenty of time to cement a set of values that he will take into management. He will have inherited traits from his former managers that he himself deploys, under the time served belief that they work. So Neil's experience in the game qualifies him more than most for the North End job.
That said, it interests me how Neil seems so obsessed with one aspect of his tactical set up - speed (not skill) down the wings (ring any bells?) - that he has done two things. He has pushed the natural wide midfielders out to the fringes of the squad (for their lack of pace - Pringle and Horgan) and he has pushed strikers out of their natural positions and into completely different roles (the difference between a winger and a striker is the same as the difference between a centre half and winger. They involve two totally different mindsets).
Robinson, last night, tried his heart out. But he often found himself as back up for O'Connor at left back or straddling the touchline and facing a specialist full back opponent in his attacking role. At no point did I consider Robinson to be a left midfielder. He is a finisher. As is Barkhuizen. Again he gave a fine effort throughout, and won plenty of headers in both attack and defence. However, again, he is not a right winger. His pace and his sharp reactions are honed for goalscoring.
Neil's stubborn obsession with pace down the flanks has led to these players floundering in those wide positions, providing poor crosses either too short or too long. Wing play is a speciality. Whether its delivering a perfect cross a la David Eyres or beating a man as in Ian Anderson, or ghosting in at the far post to slam home a la Eddie Lewis.
You want players who play on instinct, and this takes time to develop. Robinson and Barkhuizen have spent their careers scoring instinctive goals - not being wingers.
It is no difference between playing those two on the wings as playing Spurr on the wing because the skill sets are at equal ends of the skills spectrum. Yet, I assume Neil won't be playing Spurr on the wing any time soon.
In Horgan, Gallagher, and Harrop, Neil has three players who, with ball at feet can look up and aim a cross to the head of a striker. In addition, as intelligent players, those three are skilled at bringing their team mate at full back into the game, as in encouraging an overlap run from their full back. In Robinson and Barkhuizen, Neil has two players who like to convert crosses with snap shots and cute finishes. On the wing, both just put their heads down and try to run past the full back, either running the ball out of touch or being blocked by the smart opponent.
It frustrates me that Neil is treating the wings as simply requiring pacey runners and not the guile, skill, sharp passing and team play that Horgan and Gallagher and Harrop seem capable of.
As fans on the Pavilion Paddock have said, Neil tends to shout a lot at Robinson for his errors. Robinson could argue that is like entering a poodle in a greyhound race and then whipping it for not winning. Would Neil be as critical of Hugill if Hugill were put out on the wing for the afternoon?
Overall, North End clearly had a game plan going forward in the first half. But the plan was worked out by Bolton and countered fairly easily. The one dimensional wing play of Robinson and Barkhuizen was neutralised, and it left North End under severe pressure.
Neil continues to throw Horgan on at the 70 minute mark. This is unfair on the lad in my opinion, especially if Neil is judging Horgan on those moments.

A stubborn manager who fails to recognise his stubbornness will ultimately fail. This league is tough and tactical and needs a flexible approach. Grayson was excellent at switching tactics in the second half (as was Moyes) to suit the needs of the team. The ability to admit a plan isn't working is Neil's key challenge.
It was an interesting match v Bolton which was entertaining. But round pegs in round holes for me, is an important concept for Neil in the months ahead.

 

[JK]

So are we saying that the Irish revolution has left us with several players who aren't up to it?

Taking them one by one.

Maguire - Fantastic signing who we are missing big time, will become a very important player for the club.

O'Connor - Earl and Cunningham clearly ahead of him, not sure if the manager fancies him but having no choice to play him.

Boyle - Not done anything drastically wrong but again only playing down to a lack of numbers.

Horgan - Made a decent impact last season but faded out a little bit, mainly due to the number of games he has played. This season makes a bit of an impact when he initially comes off the bench but fades away a little, maybe a lack of game time is affecting his confidence. Personally think he deserves a chance to start ahead of Callum.

Browne (not sure if he counts as already here but..) Arguably our most improved player and will only get better, still not 100% certain the new manager has worked out how best to play him yet though.

Worth noting that Neil didn't have any say in signing any of them, still early days and whilst it looks like Boyle and O'Connor are the one's which may not make the grade but you have to remember how little they have cost so if only Maguire ends up being the star signing of the bunch then fair enough I say.

 

[paolo poggi]

Taking them one by one.

Maguire - Fantastic signing who we are missing big time, will become a very important player for the club.

O'Connor - Earl and Cunningham clearly ahead of him, not sure if the manager fancies him but having no choice to play him.

Boyle - Not done anything drastically wrong but again only playing down to a lack of numbers.

Horgan - Made a decent impact last season but faded out a little bit, mainly due to the number of games he has played. This season makes a bit of an impact when he initially comes off the bench but fades away a little, maybe a lack of game time is affecting his confidence. Personally think he deserves a chance to start ahead of Callum.

Browne (not sure if he counts as already here but..) Arguably our most improved player and will only get better, still not 100% certain the new manager has worked out how best to play him yet though.

Worth noting that Neil didn't have any say in signing any of them, still early days and whilst it looks like Boyle and O'Connor are the one's which may not make the grade but you have to remember how little they have cost so if only Maguire ends up being the star signing of the bunch then fair enough I say.

Agree on most of this mer5eywhite.

As much as it will be tricky to take over a sinking ship of a team, Neil may have an equally challenging time - albeit for different reasons - by taking over a reasonably settled side. It is worth mentioning that, at times in the final third of last season, but for the McGeady factor, there were slim pickings in terms of goals and performances of note. Nobody was really sad to see Grayson depart which suggests that maybe the squad wasn't as top notch as we all might have hoped for even if morale was high. Neil, simply for being a different human being, wasn't going to keep everybody happy.

I wonder if Neil's adulation of Hugill carries a quiet hidden agenda to keep his stock high for sale in the January window. Great lad Hugill, but my jury is still well and truly out on his contributions to the side, and I'd take the money all day long. Consider the players North End have cashed in on in the past, it is a joke that they now turn down monstrous bids for Jordan.

Maguire (ideally) plus Barkhuizen up front for me. Spritely, get in behind the centre halves and can finish.

Browne, as you correctly observe, seems to have played in behind Mavidivi during the second half. Neil has said he wants Browne to score more goals. But not by being a makeshift striker, surely?

Two pacey forwards from Mavidivi, Bark, Robinson; Pearson sitting in with Harrop (or Browne sitting in with Pearson ahead) ahead and behind the front two, with Gallagher and Horgan on the flanks. Pace from the forwards and skill across the middle.

 

[MrHodgeheg123]

So, do you have an agenda too? Why does someone who is not too optimistic about things at PNE necessarily have an 'agenda'?

OK Harry, agenda might be the wrong word to use buf ffs it's not rocket science to see our dip in form has coincided with the increasing injury list.
I don't care what league you're in and which team you are, a high percentage of injuries to your first choice players is going to have a detrimental effect on performances.

 

[Durutti]

OK Harry, agenda might be the wrong word to use buf ffs it's not rocket science to see our dip in form has coincided with the increasing injury list.
I don't care what league you're in and which team you are, a high percentage of injuries to your first choice players is going to have a detrimental effect on performances.

Agreed IF you agree that injuries are essentially just acts of the gods. I think it's a dumb way of looking at things personally.

 

[MrHodgeheg123]

Agreed IF you agree that injuries are essentially just acts of the gods. I think it's a dumb way of looking at things personally.

Eh!😕

 

[Sambora]

Do people bother fucking looking at the injury list. Not just our defence but our two main goalscorers. Jesus christ

Yeah bad injury list and the defence did really well I’m just frustrated that certain players are being played out of position and our manager won’t change tactics when it’s blatantly obvious needed to try and win the match.

 

[pne4ever]

Its times like this, when injuries and suspensions start to add up that a GOOD manager really earns his money.
To do this IMO he needs to be adaptable and use his limited resources in the best possible way.
This does require changes to the normal tactics. I'm unfortunately getting convinced AN May be incapable of achieving this.