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Heckingbottom

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Heckingbottom

I think when we win a game of football people forget actually how bad we have been since Christmas. I couldn't give two shits about the fist pumps and 'Good performance' yesterday, the season is over.

Papers over the cracks and the fact that players like Dobbin and Devine, for as good ability wise as they are, have gone completely missing when it has mattered. Whether this has anything to do with being on loan I'm not sure.

As far as the rest of the squad is concerned, it has been a shit show in terms of consistency. The points we have picked up and for me the number one reason again we aren't fighting relegation is we have Iversen. The amount of world class saves that have preserved us points is often than none and this showed in his absence.

If new owners come in they need to sit down with Hecky and create a concrete plan. Our permanent squad is no where near good enough and a lot of bold decisions to be made. Our team needs a number of permanent signings to build around who will play week in week out.
 
His recent press comments and upturn in mood makes me think he's been told that he's staying on.
 
Bodney Rewes said:
That's because we narrowly avoided relegation last season. If you break it down season by season it's 22.7% in the league last season and 32.6% in the league this season

The thing is win percentage is a bit of a daft metric because the assumption is that wins are the only thing that matters even though vital points can be accrued by drawing games. Points per game is a more suitable metric for this discussion. It doesn't make things look dramatically better but gives a fairer picture at least. It's like if you look at last season, he was earning around 1.14 points per game. Considering how few points we managed to accrue, even the two games where he wasn't manager had a significant impact on our season simply because we failed to earn points from them and we ended up avoiding relegation by 1 point. If I wanted to be generous to Heckingbottom, you could use that 1.14 PPG metric and say that if he was managing the full season, the maths shows we would've earned 52 points instead of the 50 we did earn. Obviously since it's just a hypothetical, it doesn't necessarily mean too much. I do wonder what our season would've been like if he'd managed the full season and had the pre-season too though.
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The pattern over the two seasons has been similar and next season I would imagine it would be the same. By every metric he's poor. To say had he had a pre season and two extra games last year we wouldn't have fallen to pieces is questionable because there's no evidence for that. Managers don't come in at the perfect time, look at O'Neil at Rovers.

He's had a full season. He's made his signings. We are still wank. The football is boring as fuck.
 
I said last week that I found the comments about going for it and being exciting to watch strange when we’ve had months of mind numbing tedium. These weren’t the comments of a new managerial team taking over, they were the comments of those presiding over the months of mind numbing tedium.

If they had noted their own failings I’d have some sympathy with them.
 
Think one of the telling things after watching quite a few games this weekend is how much better other sides play their football, i know player skill has a lot to do with it but just the pace of play and attacking intent for example is miles ahead of where we are, that's got to come down to manager, those games for example leading going in late in the match only to concede and lose points have cost us dear again seeing where the likely last playoff spot is going to land.
 
kpaul116 said:
Think one of the telling things after watching quite a few games this weekend is how much better other sides play their football, i know player skill has a lot to do with it but just the pace of play and attacking intent for example is miles ahead of where we are, that's got to come down to manager, those games for example leading going in late in the match only to concede and lose points have cost us dear again seeing where the likely last playoff spot is going to land.
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Lack of resilience has been an issue for certain.
 
Durutti said:
The pattern over the two seasons has been similar and next season I would imagine it would be the same. By every metric he's poor. To say had he had a pre season and two extra games last year we wouldn't have fallen to pieces is questionable because there's no evidence for that. Managers don't come in at the perfect time, look at O'Neil at Rovers.

He's had a full season. He's made his signings. We are still wank. The football is boring as fuck.
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To be fair, I wasn't saying we wouldn't have fallen to pieces, I was in as much wondering whether we would've been further away from relegation than we were.

I think I have a different definition of what constitutes poor ultimately. If we're talking about this season, for me there isn't a great deal of difference in any of the midtable spots so I don't think he's doing particularly worse than any manager we've had since returning to the Championship. I simply do not see how this season is poor when compared to the previous 10. I mean we're currently sat in 12th with one game to go and 12th is our natural home so much so that it's a joke among other Championship fans. We've had lower scoring seasons, we've had seasons where we've conceded more goals, we've had seasons with worse goal differences, we've had seasons with fewer wins, seasons with more draws, seasons with more losses. Even in terms of bottling a playoff push, we had a season where we were sat in the playoffs as late as March and still ended up finishing outside of it.

If we're talking about last season, like you said managers don't often come in at a perfect time. Heckingbottom had a worse starting hand than every manager we've had under this ownership I'd argue. The very fact that he started with those restrictions and limitations surely earns him some leeway in judging last season. Even if you judge where we finished last season based on what fans on here were saying going into that season, Heckingbottom succeeded in avoiding relegation when a lot of fans thought we were going to go down. People were expecting a relegation battle and that is what happened. That is the situation he walked into but people will still blame him for the fact that we were in a relegation battle.

In terms of the entertainment of matches themselves, ultimately I think it's just the fatigue of fans that's making people think it's worse than it is. 10 years of not going anywhere has made people more impatient. The problem is the question of entertainment is subjective but I think people are being unfair to suggest that the football has never been less entertaining. When we first returned to the division, we finished the season having only scored 45 goals. People look fondly on those first few years back in the Championship but the reality is that the football on the whole wasn't that much better than we've been experiencing this season. It's just because everything was fresh and new because we were back in the Championship. I think George Hodgson said this on a recent LEP podcast but if I am to pin the entertainment question down to one thing we haven't experienced under Heckingbottom, it's that we haven't battered anyone by 4 goals or so. If we had one game like that, I think fans would start to feel more comfortable with the idea that we could beat anyone on our day.
 
Bodney Rewes said:
To be fair, I wasn't saying we wouldn't have fallen to pieces, I was in as much wondering whether we would've been further away from relegation than we were.

I think I have a different definition of what constitutes poor ultimately. If we're talking about this season, for me there isn't a great deal of difference in any of the midtable spots so I don't think he's doing particularly worse than any manager we've had since returning to the Championship. I simply do not see how this season is poor when compared to the previous 10. I mean we're currently sat in 12th with one game to go and 12th is our natural home so much so that it's a joke among other Championship fans. We've had lower scoring seasons, we've had seasons where we've conceded more goals, we've had seasons with worse goal differences, we've had seasons with fewer wins, seasons with more draws, seasons with more losses. Even in terms of bottling a playoff push, we had a season where we were sat in the playoffs as late as March and still ended up finishing outside of it.

If we're talking about last season, like you said managers don't often come in at a perfect time. Heckingbottom had a worse starting hand than every manager we've had under this ownership I'd argue. The very fact that he started with those restrictions and limitations surely earns him some leeway in judging last season. Even if you judge where we finished last season based on what fans on here were saying going into that season, Heckingbottom succeeded in avoiding relegation when a lot of fans thought we were going to go down. People were expecting a relegation battle and that is what happened. That is the situation he walked into but people will still blame him for the fact that we were in a relegation battle.

In terms of the entertainment of matches themselves, ultimately I think it's just the fatigue of fans that's making people think it's worse than it is. 10 years of not going anywhere has made people more impatient. The problem is the question of entertainment is subjective but I think people are being unfair to suggest that the football has never been less entertaining. When we first returned to the division, we finished the season having only scored 45 goals. People look fondly on those first few years back in the Championship but the reality is that the football on the whole wasn't that much better than we've been experiencing this season. It's just because everything was fresh and new because we were back in the Championship. I think George Hodgson said this on a recent LEP podcast but if I am to pin the entertainment question down to one thing we haven't experienced under Heckingbottom, it's that we haven't battered anyone by 4 goals or so. If we had one game like that, I think fans would start to feel more comfortable with the idea that we could beat anyone on our day.
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The 10 years of not going anywhere comment is spot on but it isn't impatience. Have you seen the Gary Lineker quotes about Leicester's last ten years? Literally won the prem and FA cup, got into Europe, promotion, relegation. In all that time...we've done absolutely nothing. I would have loved a tenth of what they've had.

I would feel better if we were building towards something. I absolutely guarantee you that had Lang's money been spent on 2 players under the age of 23, I'd be fighting Heck's corner. That signing has ultimately floored me in my support of as it shows he's a self preservation merchant. That signing should have been stopped by Ridsdale as it wasn't in PNE's interest, it was in Heck's.

Couple with 5 at the back and no improvement in performance or entertainment between this and the despised Lowe and there is nothing left to defend.

Lang will damage us the way the Carter and Bayliss signings did without the new Zedan era. Mark my words and my words were bang on when I called it from day one as a shite signing.
 
Even if we achieve promotion somehow under Hecky then what? Did you see his record in the Premier league with Sheff Utd. Yes agreed he had a few players sold under him but still he could not buy a win! We’ve already encountered this in the championship in the past 2 seasons where we go on a losing streak and when we win a match at the 13th attempt, the fans cream themselves believing we are back. I’d rather put a new man in charge who plays attractive football and gives us a chance to win some football games!
 
Hoz ' said:
Even if we achieve promotion somehow under Hecky then what? Did you see his record in the Premier league with Sheff Utd. Yes agreed he had a few players sold under him but still he could not buy a win! We’ve already encountered this in the championship in the past 2 seasons where we go on a losing streak and when we win a match at the 13th attempt, the fans cream themselves believing we are back. I’d rather put a new man in charge who plays attractive football and gives us a chance to win some football games!
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Equally Farke's not entirely got a great track record but he's on course to keep Leeds up.
 
Hoz ' said:
Even if we achieve promotion somehow under Hecky then what? Did you see his record in the Premier league with Sheff Utd. Yes agreed he had a few players sold under him but still he could not buy a win! We’ve already encountered this in the championship in the past 2 seasons where we go on a losing streak and when we win a match at the 13th attempt, the fans cream themselves believing we are back. I’d rather put a new man in charge who plays attractive football and gives us a chance to win some football games!
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If Paul Heckingbottom somehow guides this club into the top level of English football for the first time in a lifetime, the man will be a God in these parts.

I for one won't be worrying about his Premier League record whilst manager of a doomed from the start Sheffield United team. I'll be too busy bowing before his brand new statue.
 
Hoz ' said:
Even if we achieve promotion somehow under Hecky then what? Did you see his record in the Premier league with Sheff Utd. Yes agreed he had a few players sold under him but still he could not buy a win! We’ve already encountered this in the championship in the past 2 seasons where we go on a losing streak and when we win a match at the 13th attempt, the fans cream themselves believing we are back. I’d rather put a new man in charge who plays attractive football and gives us a chance to win some football games!
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I can't help but feel we might be getting ahead of ourselves...
 
Hoz ' said:
Even if we achieve promotion somehow under Hecky then what? Did you see his record in the Premier league with Sheff Utd. Yes agreed he had a few players sold under him but still he could not buy a win! We’ve already encountered this in the championship in the past 2 seasons where we go on a losing streak and when we win a match at the 13th attempt, the fans cream themselves believing we are back. I’d rather put a new man in charge who plays attractive football and gives us a chance to win some football games!
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He was shafted by the owners in the prem, probably still would have come down but he was given the bare minimum after getting promoted which didn’t help their chances.

You could say he’s had it the same here, his managerial ability got the squad to 4th by Christmas but the ultimate lack of depth and quality in the squad plus the poor January windows just hindered him again.

Just to clarify I’m not 100% defending him, he takes a lot of blame for the collapse but with decent planning he maybe could of done better and we could of had a better chance for the play offs.

I can’t decide whether I want someone new in yet or to give hecky a chance under a new regime like he’s seems to be advocating atm - a new owners who is willing to back him could mean better quality of players which could lead to the quality of football improving. Which probably puts me floating towards giving him a chance but it’s still tough.

But the idea of getting a new manager in who plays attractive football doesn’t guarantee results and wins, especially with how much this squad needs overhauling.

Ultimately Id trust the judgement of the new owner to make the right decision
 
ConnorPR2 said:
He was shafted by the owners in the prem, probably still would have come down but he was given the bare minimum after getting promoted which didn’t help their chances.

You could say he’s had it the same here, his managerial ability got the squad to 4th by Christmas but the ultimate lack of depth and quality in the squad plus the poor January windows just hindered him again.

Just to clarify I’m not 100% defending him, he takes a lot of blame for the collapse but with decent planning he maybe could of done better and we could of had a better chance for the play offs.

I can’t decide whether I want someone new in yet or to give hecky a chance under a new regime like he’s seems to be advocating atm - a new owners who is willing to back him could mean better quality of players which could lead to the quality of football improving. Which probably puts me floating towards giving him a chance but it’s still tough.

But the idea of getting a new manager in who plays attractive football doesn’t guarantee results and wins, especially with how much this squad needs overhauling.

Ultimately Id trust the judgement of the new owner to make the right decision
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I know I keep banging on about it but it's valid...the Lang signing for me is a worry as to where an unchecked PH would take us, player wise.
 
Durutti said:
I know I keep banging on about it but it's valid...the Lang signing for me is a worry as to where an unchecked PH would take us, player wise.
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Yeah I get where you’re coming from, still no doubt Lang has quality though. The lang signing for me will be entirely dependent on how he copes next season. If he can stay fit and play a decent part, I can accept the signing.
 
callum-pne said:
I can't help but feel we might be getting ahead of ourselves...
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Probably worth starting to think ahead a bit now. The Hemmings era is gently winding down, and under Zedan we’re no longer quite the small fish in a big pond, more a slightly more confident fish in the same pond, but with better posture.

Hopefully the days of being gently reminded to keep wages and ambition neatly in check are behind us!!
 
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