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More on attendances

  • Thread starter Thread starter White in Exile
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More on attendances

W

White in Exile

New thread to pick up those like me bored but the regurgitated stuff on the others:

From the crowd data in the programme I've kept track of the home element in the gates for the past few seasons. I've just been given the data for this season:

For the first 8 home games of each season the HOME element in the crowd was:

(this season last)

1 * 15,325 * 11,361 * 12,641 * 12,230
2 * 12,403 * 11,316 * 12,660 * 11,214
3 * 11,768 * 10,877 * 12,048 * 11,299
4 * 11,392 * 11,156 * 14,403 * 11,008
5 * 11,850 * 11,217 * 11,857 * 11,264
6 * 13,738 * 10,880 * 14,037 * 13,778
7 * 13,562 ** 9,763 * 12,809 * 12,865
8 * 11,950 * 10,864 * 12,753 * 14,513

Form your own view on the "missing thousands"
 
Re: More on attendances

White in Exile said:
New thread to pick up those like me bored but the regurgitated stuff on the others:

From the crowd data in the programme I've kept track of the home element in the gates for the past few seasons. I've just been given the data for this season:

For the first 8 home games of each season the HOME element in the crowd was:

(this season last)

1 * 15,325 * 11,361 * 12,641 * 12,230
2 * 12,403 * 11,316 * 12,660 * 11,214
3 * 11,768 * 10,877 * 12,048 * 11,299
4 * 11,392 * 11,156 * 14,403 * 11,008
5 * 11,850 * 11,217 * 11,857 * 11,264
6 * 13,738 * 10,880 * 14,037 * 13,778
7 * 13,562 ** 9,763 * 12,809 * 12,865
8 * 11,950 * 10,864 * 12,753 * 14,513

Form your own view on the "missing thousands"
Click to expand...

North End figures should not be looked at in isolation, but in conjunction with attendances across the Football League. The fact is that attendances are down everywhere. Live football is fantastically over-priced. There's saturation TV coverage to compete with as well. Footballs bubble could not keep on getting bigger indefinitely.

It's now starting to get smaller and pay on the gate initiatives or free kids at shit games schemes are not going to make that much difference.

Our best comparator is Burnley, who by lucky coincidence are in a virtually identical League position. Their crowds ar even worse and North End are not doing that badly.

The only way to react to the situation is to restrict the money spent on players transfer fees, wages, signing on fees etc.

Fortunately we have had a prudent approach to these things for a few years anyway.
 
Re: More on attendances

No significant difference really. The running totals are
2003 101988
2004 87434
2005 103208
2006 98171

2004 is undoubtedly the Brown factor.
 
Re: More on attendances

2005 will be the post play off boom aswell I suppose.

What may be seen as worrying, if we want to be worried, is that there is a fall from 2003 to 2006 despite us having already had a sell out and a big gate against Leeds. I can not remember if we had any big games in the corresponding period in 2003 (Burnley was outside the period in December 2003)

We can be as worried as we want to be about attendances, there are arguments to say there are problems at PNE, arguments to say there are problems with football in general, and there are arguments from the football league that aggregate crowds are up year on year. Each can be countered easily.

Over saturation of the television market is a big problem with the two most serious causes of reduced attendances midweek being champions league coverage and having had a game the saturday previous at home. The former is no surprise, even if i think many champions league games are turgid and that there are too many meaningless group games. The latter should surely be addressed by the football league, while we can talk about discounts for pairs of games to boost attendance, they have ultimate responsibility for ensuring the fixture list gives a reasonable distribution of home and away ties.

Hopefully after three weeks without football at Deepdale everyone will be back for the game with Crystal Palace and we will make the above comparison, especially with 2003, even more favourable.
 
Re: More on attendances

strpne said:
2005 will be the post play off boom aswell I suppose.

What may be seen as worrying, if we want to be worried, is that there is a fall from 2003 to 2006 despite us having already had a sell out and a big gate against Leeds. I can not remember if we had any big games in the corresponding period in 2003 (Burnley was outside the period in December 2003)

.
Click to expand...

2003/4
1 West Ham United
2 Sunderland
3 Stoke City
4 Coventry City
5 Rotherham United
6 Wimbledon
7 Ipswich Town
8 Derby County

2004/5
1 Watford
2 Sheffield United
3 Rotherham United
4 Stoke City
5 Crewe Alexandra
6 Plymouth Argyle
7 QPR
8 Nottingham Forest

2005-6
1 derby
2 reading
3 Brighton
4 Burnley
5 stoke
6 Soton
7 QPR
8 Leicester

2006-7
1 Sheff W
2 QPR
3 Cardiff
4 WBA
5 Barnsley
6 Sunderland
7 Hull
8 Leeds
 
Re: More on attendances

Thanks for that WIE, I just could not remember the fixtures from 2003.

The West Ham game was a big crowd, but of course Sunderland were going for Darwen's consecutive defeat record and did not bring many.

I would think we would be looking to get more this season than 2003, given recent good form, league placing etc. (Even if we did climb to quite dizzying heights in the first part of 2003/04 season)

Personally I want us to get the maximum possible from the crowd, revenue to allow us to compete financially and atmosphere to help us compete on the pitch. Numbers through the gate are worries in both of these respects, but I have to say I am happy in the Championship and do not get too stressed about attendance.

One of the many things I like about supporting PNE is we do not have overbearing expectations that pressurise players and management into costly mistakes as happens at so many of the supposed bigger clubs in this league. We can just sit back and enjoy the great football on offer, and the rewards it is bringing us thusfar 😀
 
Re: More on attendances

Was talking about this the other night. Attendances are down everywhere. And lets face it the amount of fixtures that are now close to one another because of Sky etc, some people are forced to pick and choose which ones they can go to.

It makes me laugh tho! The other week B*astad Rovers got just over 13 thou FOR A EUROPEAN game.

Just goes to show, perhaps on occasions people should be grateful (no-names mentioned) and perhaps give a little praise to the fans that are here week in week out!
 
Re: More on attendances

Meanwhile Man. Utd's capacity has just been increased, Arse are now in a bigger Emerates stadium & I beleive Liverpool want to increase their capacity too!
I suggest that the people who fill those new areas are people who in times past would have supported smaller Premier Clubs,Championship Clubs etc.etc. Part of the blame can be layed at
Sky which encourages 'fans' - and their kids to stay sitting front of their settees or the Local Bar.
Which is why one sees so many kids who think being taken for a afternoon off to look for themselves at the 'THIS IS ANFIELD' sign whilst wearing the replica Reds shirt & then going home to watch the actual match on Sky is.....now....enough to satisfy his demand. And whom does he want a trial with, if he's half-decent?
This is making the whole footie scene less varied and colourful & taking something away from those peoples local communities.
 
Re: More on attendances

Norman Shakeshaft said:
North End figures should not be looked at in isolation, but in conjunction with attendances across the Football League.
Click to expand...

Think in the case of your club, it's also to do with the fact that there's a ridiculous amount of Premier League clubs in the area, and it's easy for fans to jump on the Prem / Sky bandwagon. When a mate and I were driving up for the play-offs, it really hit home how strong the north-west is in footballing terms. Look at the Championship attendance table - Derby's and Norwich's attendances are holding up very well, because we're not affected by bigger local clubs. Same goes for F*rest - still getting close to 20k even in League One.
 
Re: More on attendances

strpne said:
I would think we would be looking to get more this season than 2003, given recent good form, league placing etc. (Even if we did climb to quite dizzying heights in the first part of 2003/04 season)
Click to expand...

At the risk of decending fully into Sad-Statto mode.....

In each of the past 3 seasons thers has been a significant rise in the home element of attendaces from about game 10, 03/04 that fell off again as league possition settled into mid table dross, but this year the surge seems to have come 4 or 5 games earlier. Adding more to the argument that it is league position and performances that motivate fans to come not fancy ticket deals.
 
Re: More on attendances

LondonRam said:
Think in the case of your club, it's also to do with the fact that there's a ridiculous amount of Premier League clubs in the area, and it's easy for fans to jump on the Prem / Sky bandwagon. When a mate and I were driving up for the play-offs, it really hit home how strong the north-west is in footballing terms. Look at the Championship attendance table - Derby's and Norwich's attendances are holding up very well, because we're not affected by bigger local clubs. Same goes for F*rest - still getting close to 20k even in League One.
Click to expand...

Fair comment.

Take it your not worried that Chesterfield might get up there.
 
Re: More on attendances

Had done a spreadsheet with all the figures on, including league position & opposition, but can’t import the friggin thing into the forum!! (Too much time on my hands today! 😛 )

Anyway, agree with most of the comments so far. But overall, you can’t deny the fact that our attendances so far this season are very disappointing, especially when you take into account our league position. This could be due to a number of factors, as has been argued & discussed many times. But IMHO a large contributory factor is apathy or disillusionment.

The part time, fair weather, big game supporters (call them what you want) think they have seen it all before, and they are just waiting for us to fcuk it up. Maybe they have never been on PNE before, or maybe not seen the team play for years (except for the occasional play off final outing). In the meantime, they don’t come on the games because it would make them look stupid, or they just plainly & simply can't be arsed. They see PNE as perennial underachievers, who will never achieve anything and are not worth supporting seriously, just in-case we fail ‘as usual’.

Undoubtedly many of these lapsed, or potentially new supporters will start to appear like magic, the longer our fantastic progression & success continues & the longer we stay up at the top of the league. PNE will no longer be a joke. Eventually they won’t be able to stop themselves getting caught up in the euphoria, and will once again start to believe that maybe, just maybe, THIS TIME we will do it. When they really start to believe, then & only then will they start to flock to the hallowed ground that is Deepdale, to be part of our success story, part of our historic return to the top flight, to be able to say ‘I was there’. Then you won't hear any lame excuses about the extra £2 on the day of the game, or the club make it too difficult for part-time fans to buy tickets, or I can't sit with my part-time supporter mates etc etc. And you certainly won't hear many complaints about the price of a ticket when we get promoted & people have to scramble to get £30+ tickets for a full house against Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal etc etc.

All aboard the PNE Express Juggernaut….Next stop The Premier League!! 😀
 
Re: More on attendances

What's the problem here, as I posted on a previous thread re attendances, our average attendance for the SIX SEASONS since we were promoted to this division, are just 275 per game short of the average attendance for the SIX SEASONS in this division after the club was relegated from the old div one in 1960/61! (And that was after the club's most successful 10 years of their history other than when the Invincibles were around).......😱 .

In short, the club's average gate in this division has hardly budged in over 45 years...........and won't budge unless it becomes obvious as the season goes on that premiership football is a distinct possibility..............then the 'closet' fans will start to turn up at Deepdale in numbers to roar us onto the top division towards the latter part of the season.

Anyone can post all they like about attendances, and whilst it is interesting, the bottom line is that our average gates at this level will always be about the same unless a prolonged cup run or promotion attempt intrigues enough 'fans' to make the effort to re-visit Deepdale................hopefully, this will be the year for that to happen...........🙂 .
 
Re: More on attendances

Albertan said:
What's the problem here, as I posted on a previous thread re attendances, our average attendance for the SIX SEASONS since we were promoted to this division, are just 275 per game short of the average attendance for the SIX SEASONS in this division after the club was relegated from the old div one in 1960/61! (And that was after the club's most successful 10 years of their history other than when the Invincibles were around).......😱 .

In short, the club's average gate in this division has hardly budged in over 45 years...........and won't budge unless it becomes obvious as the season goes on that premiership football is a distinct possibility..............then the 'closet' fans will start to turn up at Deepdale in numbers to roar us onto the top division towards the latter part of the season.

Anyone can post all they like about attendances, and whilst it is interesting, the bottom line is that our average gates at this level will always be about the same unless a prolonged cup run or promotion attempt intrigues enough 'fans' to make the effort to re-visit Deepdale................hopefully, this will be the year for that to happen...........🙂 .
Click to expand...


Well, what you say is correct, I am sure, but the population of Preston has steadily declined over the last 45 years. At the 1961 census it was 140,479, but had fallen to 129,642 by the 2001 census, which is an 8% fall. So, if average gates are the same, now, as they were in 1961, then proportionately to population, average gates have risen by 8%, which is equivalent to 1,000 extra fans, and not stayed the same. We must remain upbeat and positive, Albertan. 🙄
 
Re: More on attendances

LondonRam said:
Think in the case of your club, it's also to do with the fact that there's a ridiculous amount of Premier League clubs in the area, and it's easy for fans to jump on the Prem / Sky bandwagon. When a mate and I were driving up for the play-offs, it really hit home how strong the north-west is in footballing terms. Look at the Championship attendance table - Derby's and Norwich's attendances are holding up very well, because we're not affected by bigger local clubs. Same goes for F*rest - still getting close to 20k even in League One.
Click to expand...


That is a good point but the real reason our crowds are not the biggest is that its forty years since Preston (and the Dingles) were last in the top flight. All the teams we keep being compared to, by Jimmy Krankie last season and worryingly by Super Simmo on a couple of occassions this season, have been in the Premier league in the last ten years. A lot of these teams have also built new stadiums then gone bust (Derby and Leicester in particular) leaving stadium builders and contractors up to their eyes in debt, cleared their own debts by going bust then paid three or four times more than we can afford in wages to get the big names to sign! When you consider that we have been in the play offs so many times and just missed out in the last five years and its forty years since we last played top flight football, coupled with the proximity of numerous Premier League clubs, our attendances, and Burnleys, are not that bad. If we stay where we are and make a real go of automatic promotion the ground will be full by mid season. But I'm afraid the 'Johnny Come Lately Fans' have seen it all before over the last few years and are not going to put themselves out until they believe we are in with a shout of going straight up!

Lets concentrate on the positives and stop comparing ourselves to others who play by different rules to PNE.

Keep up the fantastic work Simmo And Deggsie!

Keep The Faith
 
Re: More on attendances

Blencathra said:
A lot of these teams have also built new stadiums then gone bust (Derby and Leicester in particular) leaving stadium builders and contractors up to their eyes in debt, cleared their own debts by going bust then paid three or four times more than we can afford in wages to get the big names to sign!
Click to expand...

Easy tiger... No builders or contractors were harmed financially in the building of Pride Park... The problems arose with the pressure of trying to stay in the Prem, and signing average players on ridiculous salaries (see Ravanelli on £50k a week). Leeds didn't build a new stadium, but their problems were worse than anyone's. We never went bust, and the only party that lost any money were the Co-op, who paid the price for allowing the previous Board the reins to the club after offering to invest £3 (yes, £3). The reason we can afford more wages is because we have 3,000 more season ticket holders than your average crowd.

Anyhoo, if you do get promoted, and I hope you do, then I fully expect some of the Wigan bandwagon jumpers to come to PNE. At least then they'll be watching a proper football club, not a bunch of Rugby League wannabes.
 
Re: More on attendances

Firstly can I request that any stats chart have a key to it. The opening post to this thread has a poorly written explanation followed by a jumble of 5 figure numbers that, without a key, are totally meaningless to those of us not au fait with stats.

The population of Preston posting was relevant showing the drop from 1961 to 2001. Not only has there been a drop in population but also there is a larger ethnic minority within the smaller 2001 figure. Very few of these appear to attend PNE home matches. Maybe that is something for the community officer at PNE (assuming we have one!) to address. There are many Asians in Preston who play football for local teams (I even remember there being an Asian League in Preston ... is that still going strong?). Such teams and players must be persuaded to attend PNE if our fan base is to continue to grow given what I have said about today's Preston population make-up.

It must also be remembered that competition for PNE attendance is not only from other football clubs nearby. It comes from other attractions such as the cinema, or anything else you may fancy spending £20+ on per person, in order to enjoy yourself for a couple of hours. That assumes you have £20 to spend on luxuries in the first place. There are more part time workers these days who, if single, still have to pay full whack for rent, utility bills, dentist fees, optician fees etc. That is such people get no discounts for such things nor any government handouts, and have to pay the same as a full time employee - somehow! I know as I am one such person.

It is well known to retail managers that lose a customer through bad practice and you have a huge struggle not only to get them back but also to stop them bad mouthing you to other potential customers. PNE's customer relations in the past have been not as good as they could have been. Phew, I tried to be gentle there! It has been well publicised about 2 pricing aspects for this season that need looking at: cash turnstiles and not bumping up the prices on matchday. Yet nothing has been done to rectify either complaint, and both complaints could be dealt with instantly starting with the next home match. Its a simple enough management decision to be taken by the board. A decision that would harm nobody! One cash turnstile per side of the ground would have the unsold tickets for their section. People that would use such turnstiles would be workers unable to purchase in advance, those who live far away, or simply those whose other plans for the afternoon have been scuppered due to wintry weather (eg Preston park football pitches not in use due to bad weather) and such people want entertaining. As to the bumping up of matchday prices on the day of the match, that has just caused bad feeling and resentment and no business can afford that with its paying customers.

Attendances do take time to rise and we are only 16 league games into the season. For part of this season we were in the bottom half of the table, its not as if we have always been in the top four. It is only partly success that brings in the crowds, other reasons I have already mentioned, but it is a big reason as success does not keep crowds away! But if we do very well from now on where do we put the extra fans? Our capacity is less than 20000 until the 4th side is completed. So unless you go by percentage of capacity it is no good comparing the size of our crowds at Deepdale to other teams. We also need to give the away supporters room to sit and also a cordoning off area on the Kop. If the opposition only bring 600 we have to waste about 2000 seats accommodating them - including the cordoning off area.

I simply urge the PNE board, management and fans to be realistic about attendances and things that affect it; improve what needs improving and push on to automatic promotion from here on in.
 
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