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Outside View

Outside View

Let’s just have a league based on attendances and earning power then, save all that needless football nonsense.
Obviously that is the kind of reaction realism gets from football fans.

But success and budgets are obviously inextricably linked!

It’s highly unusual for a club in any professional division in any country in the World to get to the top if they have one of the smallest budgets.

It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t shoot for the stars but it probably should mean that you should not be outraged when your club is still outperforming its budget.
 
I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things.

Hopefully, I’m not breaking any rules by posting this thread and it’ll be taken in the spirit it’s intended.

I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

According to the poll on this forum, nearly 80% of you think Lowe should be sacked - which massively surprised me.

Looking at it from the outside, it seems he is exceeding or at the very least meeting what should be expected.

You’ve got the 18th largest average attendance in the division. You are only averaging a few hundred more than QPR, Plymouth, Millwall and Swansea - all of whom have considerably less away fans through the door than you. Therefore, in terms of home supporter base, you are currently 22nd in the division, only ahead of Blackburn and Rotherham.

Every single one of the six teams with smaller averages is below you in the league table.

You don’t have a rich benefactor, so it is reasonable to assume that the teams above you in the league average attendance all have bigger budgets than you. Especially, since most of those teams are backed by wealthy owners and many have parachute payments.

This is backed up by your latest accounts (for 2022) which show your wage bill to be under £22m, comparatively small in the division. However, when you take into account of player amortisation, you are running at an operating loss of circa £20m. Obviously, for FFP purposes, some of these losses wouldn’t count towards the permitted losses of £39m over three seasons. However, maybe I was wrong when earlier I said you didn’t have a rich benefactor as it appears your owners must be basically losing very close to the permitted FFP amount every year.

The reason you can’t spend more is your modest turnover of £13.8m. For comparable purposes, Sheffield Wednesday had turnover of £16.3m in League One, therefore in The Championship their turnover is likely to be £10m higher than yours with the extra solidarity and TV payments.

Not only are your crowds small for the division, but the ticket prices you pay are also far below average. This can be evidenced by even a club like Luton (in 2022 so the year before they got promoted), had turnover of £17.7m.

Blackburn are one of the two clubs getting lower home support in numbers than you, but their turnover was £16.6m in 2022 - over 20% higher than yours.

I look at the teams immediately above you in the table and then compare their 2022 revenue figures and those of Sunderland, Bristol City, Boro’s and Watfords (due to parachute payments) dwarf yours.

Therefore, I’m struggling to see who is above you that you realistically think you should be above?

I then look at the teams below you. Coventry City had a turnover of £18m in 2022 and spent a fortune this Summer. Norwich have parachute payments, Stoke, Birmingham and Wednesday have far bigger budgets. Therefore, it appears lots of clubs would expect to be above you but aren’t.

Certainly in terms of budgets, Lowe has you punching well above your weight.

Then I’ve seen various comments that other clubs without big budgets have managed to get promotion to the PL. But unless I’m missing one, I don’t think a club with as smaller budget as yours has managed it for very many years!

Luton are perhaps the closest but I showed above that their revenue was still 30% higher than yours in 2022.

Bournemouth and Brentford are definitely historically smaller clubs but they had owners that backed them heavily and at the right time. There’s no way Bournemouth would get away nowadays (under heavier FFP legislation) with the losses they originally incurred to get into the EPL for the first time. Once they were in they then got locked into the parachute payment merry go round.

Brentford’s model allowed them to make huge profits on player sales (something no other club has managed to successfully replicate) but even then their turnover from day to day activities was £15.2m back in 18/19.

Therefore, and I guess in summary, to an outsider like me it appears that you are punching well above your weight.

You don’t get enough fans through the gate to achieve any more. And the fans you do get, don’t pay enough for your tickets. You would buck every trend going, if you managed to get to the PL and you are currently achieving pretty much the ceiling of what can reasonably be expected.

Your owner appears to be chucking in cash to the limit of what is permitted under FFP rules.

I totally accept that this post probably my won’t make me popular. But come on guys, what am I missing? It appears that your budget should probably make you are club that yo-yo’s between League One and The Championship but you are an established Championship club that is never in the conversations about relegation.

At the moment you just look like Charlton fans did whinging about coming mid table in the PL every year.
First correction- we are owned by a billionaire!
Second correction- come and watch what we've been watching all season, you will soon change your opinion!
 
Most opposing fans have a mainly negative view of their chosen Club as a rule- even if they are fans of the Big 6 Clubs.

It would be mildly interesting to read what your views are of your Clubs fortunes for example, and what your chances are of playing your City rivals are, for starters
Our fans view would be that our owner is an absolute moron and that by yo-yoing between the Championship and League One we’ve massively underachieved for 25 years.

But the difference is, I think the fans of most opposing clubs would share that view of Wednesday.
 
We've had this a few times from opposing teams fans, and I get how it looks like we're doing about average from the outside. I think what you fail to take into account, is that since our freak start of around the first 10 games we've been in relegation form, and people who watch us week in week out don't see anything from Lowe to suggest he has the ability to turn it around.

I personally wouldn't be disappointed with a midtable finish, but if we carry on with our current form then we won't be midtable for long, and given how long we've been in this form, and how few signs of improvement there have been, I think it's fair to suggest that Lowe's had long enough to turn round the current run of form and just isn't capable of doing it.
 
An alleged Sheff Wed fan telling us about how we should accept 16 points from 18 games as "punching above our weight".

No other championship club with a modicum of ambition would put up with that series of results and performances.

A supporter of a basket case club like Sheff Wed, who've made a mockery of FFP and been rightly punished for it, shouldn't be telling us what to think about anything.

Hope Lowe shows up at Hillsborough one day so you can witness his special brand of football for yourself.
 
Is this GallyNuge with an alt account? Started by saying they are a Sheff Weds fan, but then later refers to Sheff Weds as "their". I'd always refer to PNE as us or we.
IMG_0248.jpeg
 
I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things.

Hopefully, I’m not breaking any rules by posting this thread and it’ll be taken in the spirit it’s intended.

I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

According to the poll on this forum, nearly 80% of you think Lowe should be sacked - which massively surprised me.

Looking at it from the outside, it seems he is exceeding or at the very least meeting what should be expected.

You’ve got the 18th largest average attendance in the division. You are only averaging a few hundred more than QPR, Plymouth, Millwall and Swansea - all of whom have considerably less away fans through the door than you. Therefore, in terms of home supporter base, you are currently 22nd in the division, only ahead of Blackburn and Rotherham.

Every single one of the six teams with smaller averages is below you in the league table.

You don’t have a rich benefactor, so it is reasonable to assume that the teams above you in the league average attendance all have bigger budgets than you. Especially, since most of those teams are backed by wealthy owners and many have parachute payments.

This is backed up by your latest accounts (for 2022) which show your wage bill to be under £22m, comparatively small in the division. However, when you take into account of player amortisation, you are running at an operating loss of circa £20m. Obviously, for FFP purposes, some of these losses wouldn’t count towards the permitted losses of £39m over three seasons. However, maybe I was wrong when earlier I said you didn’t have a rich benefactor as it appears your owners must be basically losing very close to the permitted FFP amount every year.

The reason you can’t spend more is your modest turnover of £13.8m. For comparable purposes, Sheffield Wednesday had turnover of £16.3m in League One, therefore in The Championship their turnover is likely to be £10m higher than yours with the extra solidarity and TV payments.

Not only are your crowds small for the division, but the ticket prices you pay are also far below average. This can be evidenced by even a club like Luton (in 2022 so the year before they got promoted), had turnover of £17.7m.

Blackburn are one of the two clubs getting lower home support in numbers than you, but their turnover was £16.6m in 2022 - over 20% higher than yours.

I look at the teams immediately above you in the table and then compare their 2022 revenue figures and those of Sunderland, Bristol City, Boro’s and Watfords (due to parachute payments) dwarf yours.

Therefore, I’m struggling to see who is above you that you realistically think you should be above?

I then look at the teams below you. Coventry City had a turnover of £18m in 2022 and spent a fortune this Summer. Norwich have parachute payments, Stoke, Birmingham and Wednesday have far bigger budgets. Therefore, it appears lots of clubs would expect to be above you but aren’t.

Certainly in terms of budgets, Lowe has you punching well above your weight.

Then I’ve seen various comments that other clubs without big budgets have managed to get promotion to the PL. But unless I’m missing one, I don’t think a club with as smaller budget as yours has managed it for very many years!

Luton are perhaps the closest but I showed above that their revenue was still 30% higher than yours in 2022.

Bournemouth and Brentford are definitely historically smaller clubs but they had owners that backed them heavily and at the right time. There’s no way Bournemouth would get away nowadays (under heavier FFP legislation) with the losses they originally incurred to get into the EPL for the first time. Once they were in they then got locked into the parachute payment merry go round.

Brentford’s model allowed them to make huge profits on player sales (something no other club has managed to successfully replicate) but even then their turnover from day to day activities was £15.2m back in 18/19.

Therefore, and I guess in summary, to an outsider like me it appears that you are punching well above your weight.

You don’t get enough fans through the gate to achieve any more. And the fans you do get, don’t pay enough for your tickets. You would buck every trend going, if you managed to get to the PL and you are currently achieving pretty much the ceiling of what can reasonably be expected.

Your owner appears to be chucking in cash to the limit of what is permitted under FFP rules.

I totally accept that this post probably my won’t make me popular. But come on guys, what am I missing? It appears that your budget should probably make you are club that yo-yo’s between League One and The Championship but you are an established Championship club that is never in the conversations about relegation.

At the moment you just look like Charlton fans did whinging about coming mid table in the PL every year.
That's that, then. All fans of all clubs, just give up. Here comes the European Super League, but remember only disgustingly rich clubs allowed.....

BTW, you do know that fans through the turnstiles means very little to.the rich big boys, don't you? isn't there a well known saying (to those who like stats😉) that when a club is relegated to the Championship, they could let every fan in for nothing and still dwarf the incomes of the other clubs without parachute payments..... wake up and smell the coffee, fans don't count in modern football and you as a SW fan should know this all too well, so don't come on here spouting 'truth' when we as small fry supporters are just trying to say 'hey, fans' opinions still count'.
 
First correction- we are owned by a billionaire!
Second correction- come and watch what we've been watching all season, you will soon change your opinion!
Well like I said, it’s clear he’s putting in the maximum FFP allows.

Will the fans that are moaning about underachievement back your owner if you had the same prices as Wednesday?

Tickets £33-£43 against Hull for a Category E fixture.

 
I know this is tongue in cheek, but I'd certainly hope not, given he is the one responsible for generating said revenue!
It’s kind of tongue in cheek, and kind of not. There will be a connection somewhere if you dig deep enough. Our Robert is not the brightest button in the box.
 
That's that, then. All fans of all clubs, just give up. Here comes the European Super League, but remember only disgustingly rich clubs allowed.....

BTW, you do know that fans through the turnstiles means very little to.the rich big boys, don't you? isn't there a well known saying (to those who like stats😉) that when a club is relegated to the Championship, they could let every fan in for nothing and still dwarf the incomes of the other clubs without parachute payments..... wake up and smell the coffee, fans don't count in modern football and you as a SW fan should know this all too well, so don't come on here spouting 'truth' when we as small fry supporters are just trying to say 'hey, fans' opinions still count'.
Fan numbers don’t count for EPL clubs or clubs with parachute payments.

They very much do count for EFL clubs.

You get your solidarity payments and TV money, like every EFL club.

Then gate receipts, owners throwing in up to £39m every three years, commercial revenue and sponsorship make up the rest.

Even commercial revenue, sponsorship and TV revenue have a direct correlation with fan numbers.

Even if you disagree fan numbers count - revenue clearly does.

Only Rotherham probably have a lower revenue than you - same argument, you are punching above your weight.
 
I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

Your opinions are far removed from what we actually feel , you've tried to come across as educated and all you've done is make a tit of yourself by patronising us.

At least we're the biggest club in our City though ..... silver lining's and all that.
They’re comfortably the biggest club in Sheffield to be fair to them
 
I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

Your opinions are far removed from what we actually feel , you've tried to come across as educated and all you've done is make a tit of yourself by patronising us.

At least we're the biggest club in our City though ..... silver lining's and all that.
Tbh, I didn’t realise Preston was a city.

Assuming you’re right on that, then yes can’t disagree with that.
 
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