Outside View

[nigelscamelcoat]

Our fans view would be that our owner is an absolute moron and that by yo-yoing between the Championship and League One we’ve massively underachieved for 25 years.

But the difference is, I think the fans of most opposing clubs would share that view of Wednesday.

And very funny it is too, because without exception every wendy fan I've ever met has been a complete tool. Carry on failing.🤣🤣🤣

 

[PrestonUltras81]

I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things.

Hopefully, I’m not breaking any rules by posting this thread and it’ll be taken in the spirit it’s intended.

I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

According to the poll on this forum, nearly 80% of you think Lowe should be sacked - which massively surprised me.

Looking at it from the outside, it seems he is exceeding or at the very least meeting what should be expected.

You’ve got the 18th largest average attendance in the division. You are only averaging a few hundred more than QPR, Plymouth, Millwall and Swansea - all of whom have considerably less away fans through the door than you. Therefore, in terms of home supporter base, you are currently 22nd in the division, only ahead of Blackburn and Rotherham.

Every single one of the six teams with smaller averages is below you in the league table.

You don’t have a rich benefactor, so it is reasonable to assume that the teams above you in the league average attendance all have bigger budgets than you. Especially, since most of those teams are backed by wealthy owners and many have parachute payments.

This is backed up by your latest accounts (for 2022) which show your wage bill to be under £22m, comparatively small in the division. However, when you take into account of player amortisation, you are running at an operating loss of circa £20m. Obviously, for FFP purposes, some of these losses wouldn’t count towards the permitted losses of £39m over three seasons. However, maybe I was wrong when earlier I said you didn’t have a rich benefactor as it appears your owners must be basically losing very close to the permitted FFP amount every year.

The reason you can’t spend more is your modest turnover of £13.8m. For comparable purposes, Sheffield Wednesday had turnover of £16.3m in League One, therefore in The Championship their turnover is likely to be £10m higher than yours with the extra solidarity and TV payments.

Not only are your crowds small for the division, but the ticket prices you pay are also far below average. This can be evidenced by even a club like Luton (in 2022 so the year before they got promoted), had turnover of £17.7m.

Blackburn are one of the two clubs getting lower home support in numbers than you, but their turnover was £16.6m in 2022 - over 20% higher than yours.

I look at the teams immediately above you in the table and then compare their 2022 revenue figures and those of Sunderland, Bristol City, Boro’s and Watfords (due to parachute payments) dwarf yours.

Therefore, I’m struggling to see who is above you that you realistically think you should be above?

I then look at the teams below you. Coventry City had a turnover of £18m in 2022 and spent a fortune this Summer. Norwich have parachute payments, Stoke, Birmingham and Wednesday have far bigger budgets. Therefore, it appears lots of clubs would expect to be above you but aren’t.

Certainly in terms of budgets, Lowe has you punching well above your weight.

Then I’ve seen various comments that other clubs without big budgets have managed to get promotion to the PL. But unless I’m missing one, I don’t think a club with as smaller budget as yours has managed it for very many years!

Luton are perhaps the closest but I showed above that their revenue was still 30% higher than yours in 2022.

Bournemouth and Brentford are definitely historically smaller clubs but they had owners that backed them heavily and at the right time. There’s no way Bournemouth would get away nowadays (under heavier FFP legislation) with the losses they originally incurred to get into the EPL for the first time. Once they were in they then got locked into the parachute payment merry go round.

Brentford’s model allowed them to make huge profits on player sales (something no other club has managed to successfully replicate) but even then their turnover from day to day activities was £15.2m back in 18/19.

Therefore, and I guess in summary, to an outsider like me it appears that you are punching well above your weight.

You don’t get enough fans through the gate to achieve any more. And the fans you do get, don’t pay enough for your tickets. You would buck every trend going, if you managed to get to the PL and you are currently achieving pretty much the ceiling of what can reasonably be expected.

Your owner appears to be chucking in cash to the limit of what is permitted under FFP rules.

I totally accept that this post probably my won’t make me popular. But come on guys, what am I missing? It appears that your budget should probably make you are club that yo-yo’s between League One and The Championship but you are an established Championship club that is never in the conversations about relegation.

At the moment you just look like Charlton fans did whinging about coming mid table in the PL every year.

Hey, Vill a and Brighton fans, stop paying to watch your team........ no.place for you at the top table of football; how very dare you? The best supported team in the land deserves to be up there, after all they have all these fans and all this revenue to justify their position........ if only we could disregard the footballing side, they could be winners once again; all hail Man Utd Champions of England

 

[billymac]

That’s kind of my point.

We’ve been relegated to League One three times in the last 20 years.

One day I’d like to see us return to the PL but in the meantime, I’d love us to become an established Championship club.

We’ve got a bigger budget than you but I’d love my club to get to what your club has achieved.

Which is why I find the attitude of your fan base so odd.

unless you are PR/BR then why invest so much of your time telling us how grateful we should be, have you forgotten about our "takeover" by a billionaire?

 

[AssemblyAtWembley]

We've had this a few times from opposing teams fans, and I get how it looks like we're doing about average from the outside. I think what you fail to take into account, is that since our freak start of around the first 10 games we've been in relegation form, and people who watch us week in week out don't see anything from Lowe to suggest he has the ability to turn it around.

I personally wouldn't be disappointed with a midtable finish, but if we carry on with our current form then we won't be midtable for long, and given how long we've been in this form, and how few signs of improvement there have been, I think it's fair to suggest that Lowe's had long enough to turn round the current run of form and just isn't capable of doing it.

Isn’t that what a mid table does though?

Win some, lose some, have a good run, have a bad run?

 

[nigelscamelcoat]

"I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things."

Only me!
We have another @galynuge @Coley

 

[AssemblyAtWembley]

Hey, Vill a and Brighton fans, stop paying to watch your team........ no.place for you at the top table of football; how very dare you? The best supported team in the land deserves to be up there, after all they have all these fans and all this revenue to justify their position........ if only we could disregard the footballing side, they could be winners once again; all hail Man Utd Champions of England

But Villa and Brighton fans are currently delighted that their teams are doing better than all financial metrics say they should.

Which again is my point.

You lot aren’t.

 

[MBcha]

"I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things."

Only me!
We have another @galynuge @Coley

The 'Leicester fan' has been potted.

 

[HunterLionheart]

Isn’t that what a mid table does though?

Win some, lose some, have a good run, have a bad run?

Performance wise, there has been no good run. There were good results, but they were not sustainable. We've been crap all season, and it's now catching up to us. Lowe has been here for 2 years and doesn't look capable of fixing it.

 

[HunterLionheart]

The 'Leicester fan' has been potted.

...This fella doesn't have the same IP does he?

 

[MBcha]

...This fella doesn't have the same IP does he?

A lowly moderator like myself can't check, as soon as Jake or Gaz turn up we'll have a look.

 

[AssemblyAtWembley]

unless you are PR/BR then why invest so much of your time telling us how grateful we should be, have you forgotten about our "takeover" by a billionaire?

But a billionaire can only do so much with the garbage FFP guidelines.

All he can basically do is improve your infrastructure and Chuck in £39m every three year cycle in top - which he appears to be doing.

To get to the EPL, you either need to overcome a financial Mismatch probably not seen since Blackpool got promoted or increase revenue.

The only logical way to increase revenue would seem to be increased gate receipts.

So are you willing to pay these prices?

Matchday ticket prices - Sheffield Wednesday

SWFC Matchday ticket prices for 2017/18 Sky Bet Championship season

www.swfc.co.uk

 

[JAYMAC]

That’s kind of my point.

We’ve been relegated to League One three times in the last 20 years.

One day I’d like to see us return to the PL but in the meantime, I’d love us to become an established Championship club.

We’ve got a bigger budget than you but I’d love my club to get to what your club has achieved.

Which is why I find the attitude of your fan base so odd.

We got relegated from the top flight in 1961 along with Newcastle.
Achieved very little since.

 

[nigelscamelcoat]

The 'Leicester fan' has been potted.

Suspected that when his name didnt appear.

 

[nigelscamelcoat]

But a billionaire can only do so much with the garbage FFP guidelines.

All he can basically do is improve your infrastructure and Chuck in £39m every three year cycle in top - which he appears to be doing.

To get to the EPL, you either need to overcome a financial Mismatch probably not seen since Blackpool got promoted or increase revenue.

The only logical way to increase revenue would seem to be increased gate receipts.

So are you willing to pay these prices?

Matchday ticket prices - Sheffield Wednesday

SWFC Matchday ticket prices for 2017/18 Sky Bet Championship season

www.swfc.co.uk

Yeah but you're a massive club with massive gates. Its nailed on that you're up automatically. 🤣

 

[Delaney]

Isn’t that what a mid table does though?

Win some, lose some, have a good run, have a bad run?

To a certain extent, yes, the debate is how long do you give a manager to turn around a bad run of form. Since 23rd September we've played 18 games and only got 16 points. You can agree or disagree with people wanting Lowe gone but I think fans of most clubs would be debating a manager's future after that kind of run of form.

To add further context, throughout that run Lowe has mostly stuck with the same system (a 3 at the back which he's been wedded to for years but which most fans agree doesn't suit our players), the same players, and the same tactics, while usually chalking up defeats to players not following the game plan or individual errors rather than wider tactical/strategic problems. This adds to the feeling that he's run out of ideas and hasn't got it in him to turn this run of form round, however long he's given.

 

[AssemblyAtWembley]

If Luton Town had shared your mindset, they would still be in League 1.

Let’s just rank football clubs according to size of fanbase. We can all go shopping on Saturday afternoon instead.

In other words…’bollocks!’.

No, you are misunderstanding my point.

First of all, Luton had revenue 30% higher than yours.

Secondly, I’m Not saying you should not aim for the EPL, I’m saying you shouldn’t be outraged when you are 11th in The Championship- which is a big difference.

 

[Michael]

But Villa and Brighton fans are currently delighted that their teams are doing better than all financial metrics say they should.

Which again is my point.

You lot aren’t.

4 wins in 18 and you say we should be happy?!

There's a lot more to football than money. Which you've already pointed out yourself in highlighting your yo-yoing.

Money may buy better tools, but if the handyman isn't good enough it's futile.

If money and attendances dictated everything we'd never have seen Newcastle, Leeds, Villa, West Ham, Sunderland etc playing in the second/third tier.

Some of the lowest budget teams often play the best football, because they are striving to be better. It's very rare that that applies to us, because we rarely get the balance of recruitment right. We often have the right manager but sign the wrong players, or sign the right players but appoint the wrong manager.

But what I suppose this boils down to is arrogance. You worry about Wednesday and let us worry about Preston. Don't really know how someone with no knowledge of Preston as a club or city can think they have any right to come and tell us how to feel about our club.

 

[AssemblyAtWembley]

Yeah but you're a massive club with massive gates. It’s nailed on that you're up automatically. 🤣

But again that is my point.

I’d love Wednesday to have your stability.

 

[MBcha]

To a certain extent, yes, the debate is how long do you give a manager to turn around a bad run of form. Since 23rd September we've played 18 games and only got 13 points. You can agree or disagree with people wanting Lowe gone but I think fans of most clubs would be debating a manager's future after that kind of run of form.

To add further context, throughout that run Lowe has mostly stuck with the same system (a 3 at the back which he's been wedded to for years but which most fans agree doesn't suit our players), the same players, and the same tactics, while usually chalking up defeats to players not following the game plan or individual errors rather than wider tactical/strategic problems. This adds to the feeling that he's run out of ideas and hasn't got it in him to turn this run of form round, however long he's given.

Not to mention the volume of 4+ goal defeats.

 

[PrestonUltras81]

I’m a SWFC fan and as I usually do when we have a match, I take a look at how the opposing fans are feeling about things.

Hopefully, I’m not breaking any rules by posting this thread and it’ll be taken in the spirit it’s intended.

I’ve not felt the desire to open an account on another teams forum for many years, but the opinions I’ve read on here are so far removed from what I expected that I felt compelled.

According to the poll on this forum, nearly 80% of you think Lowe should be sacked - which massively surprised me.

Looking at it from the outside, it seems he is exceeding or at the very least meeting what should be expected.

You’ve got the 18th largest average attendance in the division. You are only averaging a few hundred more than QPR, Plymouth, Millwall and Swansea - all of whom have considerably less away fans through the door than you. Therefore, in terms of home supporter base, you are currently 22nd in the division, only ahead of Blackburn and Rotherham.

Every single one of the six teams with smaller averages is below you in the league table.

You don’t have a rich benefactor, so it is reasonable to assume that the teams above you in the league average attendance all have bigger budgets than you. Especially, since most of those teams are backed by wealthy owners and many have parachute payments.

This is backed up by your latest accounts (for 2022) which show your wage bill to be under £22m, comparatively small in the division. However, when you take into account of player amortisation, you are running at an operating loss of circa £20m. Obviously, for FFP purposes, some of these losses wouldn’t count towards the permitted losses of £39m over three seasons. However, maybe I was wrong when earlier I said you didn’t have a rich benefactor as it appears your owners must be basically losing very close to the permitted FFP amount every year.

The reason you can’t spend more is your modest turnover of £13.8m. For comparable purposes, Sheffield Wednesday had turnover of £16.3m in League One, therefore in The Championship their turnover is likely to be £10m higher than yours with the extra solidarity and TV payments.

Not only are your crowds small for the division, but the ticket prices you pay are also far below average. This can be evidenced by even a club like Luton (in 2022 so the year before they got promoted), had turnover of £17.7m.

Blackburn are one of the two clubs getting lower home support in numbers than you, but their turnover was £16.6m in 2022 - over 20% higher than yours.

I look at the teams immediately above you in the table and then compare their 2022 revenue figures and those of Sunderland, Bristol City, Boro’s and Watfords (due to parachute payments) dwarf yours.

Therefore, I’m struggling to see who is above you that you realistically think you should be above?

I then look at the teams below you. Coventry City had a turnover of £18m in 2022 and spent a fortune this Summer. Norwich have parachute payments, Stoke, Birmingham and Wednesday have far bigger budgets. Therefore, it appears lots of clubs would expect to be above you but aren’t.

Certainly in terms of budgets, Lowe has you punching well above your weight.

Then I’ve seen various comments that other clubs without big budgets have managed to get promotion to the PL. But unless I’m missing one, I don’t think a club with as smaller budget as yours has managed it for very many years!

Luton are perhaps the closest but I showed above that their revenue was still 30% higher than yours in 2022.

Bournemouth and Brentford are definitely historically smaller clubs but they had owners that backed them heavily and at the right time. There’s no way Bournemouth would get away nowadays (under heavier FFP legislation) with the losses they originally incurred to get into the EPL for the first time. Once they were in they then got locked into the parachute payment merry go round.

Brentford’s model allowed them to make huge profits on player sales (something no other club has managed to successfully replicate) but even then their turnover from day to day activities was £15.2m back in 18/19.

Therefore, and I guess in summary, to an outsider like me it appears that you are punching well above your weight.

You don’t get enough fans through the gate to achieve any more. And the fans you do get, don’t pay enough for your tickets. You would buck every trend going, if you managed to get to the PL and you are currently achieving pretty much the ceiling of what can reasonably be expected.

Your owner appears to be chucking in cash to the limit of what is permitted under FFP rules.

I totally accept that this post probably my won’t make me popular. But come on guys, what am I missing? It appears that your budget should probably make you are club that yo-yo’s between League One and The Championship but you are an established Championship club that is never in the conversations about relegation.

At the moment you just look like Charlton fans did whinging about coming mid table in the PL every year.

Strap yourself in and enjoy the ride next season, whichever league you are in, cos Sheff Utd are going to dwarf you....... their income will make your eyes water, imagine the talent it could buy....... but just accept the dross your own club keeps serving up to you ticket-buying, income generating customers and remember there is no 'money back' or 'returns' in football; but you think we should all pay and shut up?