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Under 23 squad

Under 23 squad

northendmanc

northendmanc

Analytical annoyance
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
1,593
Location
Manchester
I was listening to Alex Neil on the club podcast talking earlier about the club’s recruitment policy. He was reinforcing what we all know - that we have to buy young players and hope they turn out to be good.

It made me wonder whether we should get an under 23 team. It would be good for those young players to have a chance to play, and to make sure we had game time for the first team squad who weren’t playing.

I know it would cost money (a couple of million a year?), but I’m not sure we can afford not to if we want to make sure our players develop...
 
I can't say i'm a huge fan of u23 football. I have never heard a player who has come through the ranks into the first team of a club talk about how u23 footy was great for them and help them develop, etc. On the other hand, I hear plenty of players say that going out on loans / playing ''proper'' football when younger helps develop them immensely.

Whilst admittedly it has no guarantees, I personally would prefer to develop a network of relationships with clubs whom we can loan players too for the mutual benefit of both clubs.
 
Not for me, it's a big expense and loan spells are more beneficial.

Ben Davies being the prime example but Josh Earl & Jordan Hugill also benefited from spells at lower league clubs.

Michael Howard seems to be doing well at Hednesford, hopefully we can get similar moves for Connor Simpson & Adam O'Reilly.
 
northender1881 said:
I can't say i'm a huge fan of u23 football. I have never heard a player who has come through the ranks into the first team of a club talk about how u23 footy was great for them and help them develop, etc. On the other hand, I hear plenty of players say that going out on loans / playing ''proper'' football when younger helps develop them immensely.

Whilst admittedly it has no guarantees, I personally would prefer to develop a network of relationships with clubs whom we can loan players too for the mutual benefit of both clubs.
Click to expand...

Look at the players who have left us to go on and play U23 football, Mayor, Proctor, Croasdale, Monakana & Hornby-Forbes.

Mayor - Bury
Proctor - Rotherham
Croasdale - AFC Fylde
Monakana - Wealdstone
Hornby-Forbes - Newport

No guarantees like you say but a year on loan in the Conference could have seen their careers take off more.
 
I'd give it a go. Despite it's name you can also play a few over 23 players which might help players coming back from injury get up to speed and guard against injuries recurring as soon as they're back. We've also got decent suad depth now but that's useless if players who come in haven't played a game in months. I agree that loans are more beneficial but if we could inplement an under 23s team without taking cash away from other areas, viewing it as a resource that will be paid back by future transfer fees I'd back it, this is admittedly unlikely under TH.
 
I'm a bit out of things here. I've sort of heard of U23 football... but never paid it any attention. Seems a funny age limit to me.

What exactly is the point? If you haven't made it by 21, especially at any club below mid-Premier league, then surely you should be taking your chances training and playing with the first team squad - or stepping down the divisions. Sure, there might be a handful of 22/23yr olds who benefit, but I can't see any benefit for almost all clubs in investing in such a structure.

I'm surprised there isn't a call for an old-style reserve-team league (the old 'Central League). To me it seems ideal to allow you to play your 22yr olds, 17yr olds and older fringe players or those returning from injury... to get experience or match fitness in a league structure that is competitive, though not super-important.
 
I think that having a Cat 1 Academy is a must if we want to progress and get home grown players coming through. Norwich City have had a number of successes for example the Murphy Twins, Josh and Jacob who City sold jointly for over £22 million last season, and only yesterday they extended the contracts of two of their young and exciting players, Jamal Lewis and Max Aarons, who have come through their academy - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45811799

City have been lucky enough to have played in the Prem and reaped the financial rewards so have been able to build and pay for this Cat 1 Academy which helps entice players to join City at a young age and they are now gaining the rewards both with receiving big sale fees but also not having to buy from elsewhere.
 
Not opposed to the Cat 1 idea, though I can't help but think the costs of getting a Cat 1 academy may be high, not to mention probable high running costs for the ongoing basis.

Can't see Hemmings going for it myself - perhaps when we inevitably have a new owner.
 
northender1881 said:
Not opposed to the Cat 1 idea, though I can't help but think the costs of getting a Cat 1 academy may be high, not to mention probable high running costs for the ongoing basis.

Can't see Hemmings going for it myself - perhaps when we inevitably have a new owner.
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The costs of building or renting the facilities will be significant and the running costs also. Can’t see us upgrading our current youth structure any time soon.
 
BARE LANE WHITE said:
The costs of building or renting the facilities will be significant and the running costs also. Can’t see us upgrading our current youth structure any time soon.
Click to expand...

The plans are that when the first team move to Ingol then Springies will be dedicated for the Acadamy.

Like you say though I can’t see us having a under 23 side or upping our acamdy status under the current ownership.
 
Regardless said:
I'm a bit out of things here. I've sort of heard of U23 football... but never paid it any attention. Seems a funny age limit to me.

What exactly is the point? If you haven't made it by 21, especially at any club below mid-Premier league, then surely you should be taking your chances training and playing with the first team squad - or stepping down the divisions. Sure, there might be a handful of 22/23yr olds who benefit, but I can't see any benefit for almost all clubs in investing in such a structure.

I'm surprised there isn't a call for an old-style reserve-team league (the old 'Central League). To me it seems ideal to allow you to play your 22yr olds, 17yr olds and older fringe players or those returning from injury... to get experience or match fitness in a league structure that is competitive, though not super-important.
Click to expand...

This is essentially what the under 23 league is, teams can have an over 23 goalkeeper and 3 over 23 outfield players on the pitch at any one time.
 
I’m not sure about exactly what facilities are required for a cat 1 academy but you’d really hope that our current first team facility has them!!

I think the big extra cost is staff as you need to have various coaching staff in place. For example cat 1 academies have to have a full time sports scientist, coach developer, strength and conditioning coach, performance analyst, and head of education. Cat 1 academies also require a coach to player ratio of 1:8, rather than 1:10 in cat 3.

Cat 1 required budget is around £2.5m a year, cat 3 is £500k, so you are talking an additional £2m pa, plus any facility costs.

I think u23s would be better than a cat1 academies (certainly cheaper), because we need to retain a set of people who can grow and develop and be loaned out etc, which releasing everyone at 18 doesn’t support
 
northendlondon said:
I’m not sure about exactly what facilities are required for a cat 1 academy but you’d really hope that our current first team facility has them!!

I think the big extra cost is staff as you need to have various coaching staff in place. For example cat 1 academies have to have a full time sports scientist, coach developer, strength and conditioning coach, performance analyst, and head of education. Cat 1 academies also require a coach to player ratio of 1:8, rather than 1:10 in cat 3.

Cat 1 required budget is around £2.5m a year, cat 3 is £500k, so you are talking an additional £2m pa, plus any facility costs.

I think u23s would be better than a cat1 academies (certainly cheaper), because we need to retain a set of people who can grow and develop and be loaned out etc, which releasing everyone at 18 doesn’t support
Click to expand...

In our case perhaps, but in general running an U23 side is costly. Nmecha, Adarabioyo are part of City's U23 side and are on more than 3X what our top earner is on.
 
northendlondon said:
I’m not sure about exactly what facilities are required for a cat 1 academy but you’d really hope that our current first team facility has them!!

I think the big extra cost is staff as you need to have various coaching staff in place. For example cat 1 academies have to have a full time sports scientist, coach developer, strength and conditioning coach, performance analyst, and head of education. Cat 1 academies also require a coach to player ratio of 1:8, rather than 1:10 in cat 3.

Cat 1 required budget is around £2.5m a year, cat 3 is £500k, so you are talking an additional £2m pa, plus any facility costs.

I think u23s would be better than a cat1 academies (certainly cheaper), because we need to retain a set of people who can grow and develop and be loaned out etc, which releasing everyone at 18 doesn’t support
Click to expand...

However, if we could bring players through that could be sold for £22 million like the Murphy twins at Norwich, just those two players alone would keep the cat 1 academy running for 9 years by which time you would hope that we would be able to bring through a number of very good young players. If then you are in a position to sell one for £millions every 4 or 5 years then the academy becomes self-funding
 
norfolk white said:
However, if we could bring players through that could be sold for £22 million like the Murphy twins at Norwich, just those two players alone would keep the cat 1 academy running for 9 years by which time you would hope that we would be able to bring through a number of very good young players. If then you are in a position to sell one for £millions every 4 or 5 years then the academy becomes self-funding
Click to expand...

I guess Norwich aren't exactly competing with academies at Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, Burnley, Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan , Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morecambe, etc. etc to draw their youth supply. Geography has a big part to play in the luck of the draw, Southampton another example where for years they could mop up a large catchment area that the London clubs couldn't tap and have a pipeline of youth
 
northendlondon said:
I’m not sure about exactly what facilities are required for a cat 1 academy but you’d really hope that our current first team facility has them!!
Click to expand...

As a Category 1 Academy, clubs are required to have a floodlit grass pitch, an indoor surface available all year round and match analysis suites.
 
jakehake said:
I guess Norwich aren't exactly competing with academies at Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, Burnley, Blackburn, Bolton, Wigan , Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morecambe, etc. etc to draw their youth supply. Geography has a big part to play in the luck of the draw, Southampton another example where for years they could mop up a large catchment area that the London clubs couldn't tap and have a pipeline of youth
Click to expand...

I know what you are saying jake, but given next season Prem clubs will be only allowed to loan 5 players out in any given season, will they start to cut down on youth players on their books? As for Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morcambe, etc. do they already have academies, if so this is news to me?
 
norfolk white said:
I know what you are saying jake, but given next season Prem clubs will be only allowed to loan 5 players out in any given season, will they start to cut down on youth players on their books? As for Blackpool, Fleetwood, Morcambe, etc. do they already have academies, if so this is news to me?
Click to expand...

Yeah they do. Fleetwood and AFC Fylde both have much better facilities than we currently do as well. Pool Foot Farm is fantastic.
 
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