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VAR

VAR

Regardless said:
For a start, I think that decision would not have been overturned until the ref had viewed several camera angles... and viewed the key one two or three times. No way would it have been a "quick check".
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Not sure about that. I had 3 messages from separate people (2 neutrals) within 30-60 seconds after it saying it was a dive.
 
Regardless said:
As painful as last night was, it's far better to accept the decision.
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How painful will it be if West Brom clinch auto promotion by a point? We have video reviews in many sports including the very conservative sport of Cricket. Football has made some good changes in recent times including the back pass and offside rule. With every angle now covered by cameras it's madness to be stuck in the last century.
 
VAR is happening and isn't going to go away.

Any more than cheating players and incompetent refs are going to go away (and they've had 150 years to "get that right").

So it's important we get VAR fit for purpose, without e.g. some of the crap the Premier League have bolted onto it this season.

But having VAR review a penalty decision to check whether the guy dived is an absolute no-brainer.
 
Regardless said:
For a start, I think that decision would not have been overturned until the ref had viewed several camera angles... and viewed the key one two or three times. No way would it have been a "quick check". But anyway, even if it was, the enormous damage that VAR does to the game was very clearly on show on Sunday when Tryone Mings scored an equaliser to make it 2-2.

A massive goal for him, at Old Trafford. He should have been taking a glance over to the linesman and going apeshit in celebration, thronged by his players. Instead, he wasn't sure whether or not he was offside, so it was like handshakes and taps on the shoulder.... which transmitted to the crowd who had muted celebrations. To a greater or lesser extent, this happens almost every time a goal is scored... so the way it kills the joy of the game is usually a bit more subtle.

VAR has its pros and cons. If there were never any grey-areas... and decisions where instantaneously available - like the case of goal-line technology, then it could be great. But that's never going to happen. As painful as last night was, it's far better to accept the decision. Ideally ban the guy retrospectively and move on.
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I don't disagree with you to some degree. The extent to which marginal offside decisions are pored over is painful.
However when a player has dived to win a penalty (even if a future instance went against us) I still think it has a part to play.
The right balance has to be found and probably hasn't been yet.
Can argue it both ways.
 
What gets me about Var is that they limit over-ruling the Ref with the "clear and obvious error" malarkey, and yet on offsides they go down to the level of trying to determine whether Alf Tupper's armpit was millimetres in front of Joe Bloggs' toenail. It's a badly flawed system.
 
Meldrew's Ghost said:
What gets me about Var is that they limit over-ruling the Ref with the "clear and obvious error" malarkey, and yet on offsides they go down to the level of trying to determine whether Alf Tupper's armpit was millimetres in front of Joe Bloggs' toenail. It's a badly flawed system.
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To be fair, Alf Tupper does have particularly hairy armpits.
 
Regardless said:
For a start, I think that decision would not have been overturned until the ref had viewed several camera angles... and viewed the key one two or three times. No way would it have been a "quick check". But anyway, even if it was, the enormous damage that VAR does to the game was very clearly on show on Sunday when Tryone Mings scored an equaliser to make it 2-2.

A massive goal for him, at Old Trafford. He should have been taking a glance over to the linesman and going apeshit in celebration, thronged by his players. Instead, he wasn't sure whether or not he was offside, so it was like handshakes and taps on the shoulder.... which transmitted to the crowd who had muted celebrations. To a greater or lesser extent, this happens almost every time a goal is scored... so the way it kills the joy of the game is usually a bit more subtle.

VAR has its pros and cons. If there were never any grey-areas... and decisions where instantaneously available - like the case of goal-line technology, then it could be great. But that's never going to happen. As painful as last night was, it's far better to accept the decision. Ideally ban the guy retrospectively and move on.
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The offside thing is a problem but surely there has to be a way for using it for dealing with deliberate cheating that directly affects the result of games.

To argue otherwise seems like complete madness to me - I just don't get that argument at all.
 
From the West Brom boss. Not sure the most appropriate comments given how the game was won. Not expecting him to mention the dive but he could have said something about how tight the game was and could have gone either way rather than 'That requires something'.

"We have played against a team that this season are by far the best at home and we managed to beat them. That requires something. I am extremely proud of the guys."
 
pnenycx said:
From the West Brom boss. Not sure the most appropriate comments given how the game was won. Not expecting him to mention the dive but he could have said something about how tight the game was and could have gone either way rather than 'That requires something'.

"We have played against a team that this season are by far the best at home and we managed to beat them. That requires something. I am extremely proud of the guys."
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Well it did require something. It required them to cheat
 
simo said:
The offside thing is a problem but surely there has to be a way for using it for dealing with deliberate cheating that directly affects the result of games.

To argue otherwise seems like complete madness to me - I just don't get that argument at all.
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Regardless of "it being the laws" and "offside is offside" I'm pretty confident that when VAR was being discussed as being brought in those in favour expected the big errors to be changed i.e. something like last nights decision, however I don't think anyone anticiapted it would be used to draw dotted lines on armpits or big toes and ruling someone 1cm offside.
 
simo said:
The offside thing is a problem but surely there has to be a way for using it for dealing with deliberate cheating that directly affects the result of games.

To argue otherwise seems like complete madness to me - I just don't get that argument at all.
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I understand that it sounds like madness... until you get down into the details. Last night was cheating. Clear.

Virtually all our penalties this season have been unarguable. Clear. BUUUT. You move into grey areas. Quite a lot of penalties are a lot less clear. An attacker cleverly leaves a trailing foot low, to catch a defender's leg... foul or not? Or thighs brush and the player goes down (try not to picture that one). And suddenly VAR can't help. It's easy to say "Ah... just use it when it's obvious". But I think that's just too simplistic - you're soon mired in what counts as 'obvious'. Better to leave the game simple. Goal-line technology... instantaneous decision... that's ok. I don't think the disruption caused by VAR to the fabric of the game, is worth messing around with other types of decision.
 
simo said:
The offside thing is a problem but surely there has to be a way for using it for dealing with deliberate cheating that directly affects the result of games.

To argue otherwise seems like complete madness to me - I just don't get that argument at all.
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Agree. It's not a big disruption to the game to overturn a dive. The Sky commentators could see no contact after 1 or 2 replays. The referee would've done to, if he was able to look at a monitor for about 30 seconds. That's less of a disruption to the game than many other aspects like time wasting, feigning injuries, players spending ages celebrating like West Brom last night, and so on.

Obviously there are problems with offside which the Premier League are going to have to deal with, but for the vast majority of decisions VAR can be quick and decisive.

Can't say I was that bothered about the drama, excitement and buzz of the game watching West Brom fans bounce around in the 90th minute after scoring a penalty via a dive. What drama and fun ! 🙄
 
pnenycx said:
How painful will it be if West Brom clinch auto promotion by a point? We have video reviews in many sports including the very conservative sport of Cricket. Football has made some good changes in recent times including the back pass and offside rule. With every angle now covered by cameras it's madness to be stuck in the last century.
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Painful - especially if they were a point above PNE! But all over the park, there are little decisions going for and against every team. There are 45 other games.

With cricket, most decisions are black and white. Ultra edge. Hot Spot. Ball tracking (black and white, if maybe somewhat speculative), run-outs. And the game is stopped for roughly 80% of the time. Where it comes unstuck is deciding whether a ball carried or not... where it seems on-field umpires are probably better than cameras at deciding. You start getting into grey areas and lack of clarity... and it's always a mess when they have one of those reviews - usually unsatisfactory outcomes with nobody happy.
 
Regardless said:
I understand that it sounds like madness... until you get down into the details. Last night was cheating. Clear.

Virtually all our penalties this season have been unarguable. Clear. BUUUT. You move into grey areas. Quite a lot of penalties are a lot less clear. An attacker cleverly leaves a trailing foot low, to catch a defender's leg... foul or not? Or thighs brush and the player goes down (try not to picture that one). And suddenly VAR can't help. It's easy to say "Ah... just use it when it's obvious". But I think that's just too simplistic - you're soon mired in what counts as 'obvious'. Better to leave the game simple. Goal-line technology... instantaneous decision... that's ok. I don't think the disruption caused by VAR to the fabric of the game, is worth messing around with other types of decision.
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Some decisions are arguable, no matter how much you look at them. That's fair enough, the magic of football, whatever you want to call it.

There's nothing magic at sending 10000 fans home pissed off at a blatant mistake. We can argue about protocols et. (and I'll argue about some of these ludicrous offside decisions for as long as it takes) but the technology exists to get most of the important stuff right. It should be used.
 
VAR has ruined the prem to the point its unwatchable. Thank fuck we don't have it in the champ.

If we had VAR last night, it would still have given that pen, it gets most things wrong.

We have got away with loads of iffy pens so far this season, it's not a surprise one has gone against us, it was due.
 
sedgwick__7 said:
VAR doesn't check the little decisions all over the park, it's there to check the big decisions, the ones that actually matter.
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To be clear... if there was a way to get every decision right, without affecting the flow and emotion of the game, I'd be delighted. Clearly an incorrect decision about a penalty or a goal is huge. But most incorrect decisions, throughout the ninety minutes, all over the pitch are important - we just don't notice them very much if there isn't a goal in the next 30 seconds.

That was my point. That it would be painful to lose out by a point to WBA... and we'd all blame that penalty. But in reality, there are 46 matches, with dozens of important decisions in each. They will tend to even themselves out... and if they don't, then that is, and always will be, sport.

Tyrone Mings. Not celebrating an equaliser at Old Trafford because he needed to wait for VAR. Enough said. Soul of the game diminished.
 
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