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Youth set up

Youth set up

M

Man online

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Jul 17, 2010
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I know a lot of talk has gone on about the lack of players making it from our youth set up to first team football.
Do you not think it’s time to scrap our youth set up all together?
The very best players always get taken by big clubs (Utd, City etc) and the percentage of players at any club at that actually make it is very little.
Would the money be better spent on setting up an under 23 squad only. Picking up players released from the clubs in North West (again City, Utd, Liverpool etc) finding gems that get missed plus getting lower league up and coming players for it.
It would also expand our first team squad as these players don’t count to the 25man EFL squad.
The cost of running a Youth set up is quite a lot for the amount of players that actually make the first team.
Brentford did this some years ago because they decided they were surrounded by bigger clubs in London and couldn’t compete for the best young players in the area a bit like we can’t with all the grade one academy’s around us.
 
Man online said:
I know a lot of talk has gone on about the lack of players making it from our youth set up to first team football.
Do you not think it’s time to scrap our youth set up all together?
The very best players always get taken by big clubs (Utd, City etc) and the percentage of players at any club at that actually make it is very little.
Would the money be better spent on setting up an under 23 squad only. Picking up players released from the clubs in North West (again City, Utd, Liverpool etc) finding gems that get missed plus getting lower league up and coming players for it.
It would also expand our first team squad as these players don’t count to the 25man EFL squad.
The cost of running a Youth set up is quite a lot for the amount of players that actually make the first team.
Brentford did this some years ago because they decided they were surrounded by bigger clubs in London and couldn’t compete for the best young players in the area a bit like we can’t with all the grade one academy’s around us.
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It is a mandatory requirement for all football league clubs to have a youth academy.
 
Bobbage said:
Well that's something for us to aspire to, if matching Fleetwood is too ambitious.
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Yeah, I think an academy is mandatory in the Prem, which is why Brentford had to restart theirs after promotion.

Not a problem we'd be having.

But I think if we scrapped our academy we wouldn't put in place a replacement means of developing footballers, such as U23s - I think we'd just bank the savings.
 
Thracia said:
Yeah, I think an academy is mandatory in the Prem, which is why Brentford had to restart theirs after promotion.

Not a problem we'd be having.

But I think if we scrapped our academy we wouldn't put in place a replacement means of developing footballers, such as U23s - I think we'd just bank the savings.
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I'll be honest, I had a proper epiphany in the first half v WBA.

I was already disheartened at us playing our u17s that morning and getting thrashed v Rotherham. But by 15:30 I'd turned off, wasn't fussed, didn't really bother with the pseudo u21s on Monday and decided I'm going to watch Colwyn Bay vs Ruthin on Friday to see if I enjoy a bit of [tbh Conference North standard] local football instead.
 
We'd probably send any promising young players to Bamber Bridge & Clitheroe on loan anyway.

Whereas clubs like Sunderland play them so they learn on the job and develop, we banish ours to the lower tiers of English football so they stall their careers, go backwards then get released.
 
Manuel Fawlty said:
We'd probably send any promising young players to Bamber Bridge & Clitheroe on loan anyway.

Whereas clubs like Sunderland play them so they learn on the job and develop, we banish ours to the lower tiers of English football so they stall their careers, go backwards then get released.
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Sunderland play the ones that are actually good.

Ours don't magically turn shite because they play on loan at lower levels, they just don't excel there enough to earn a place higher up.
 
Back in the 90's i coached primary age kids in the fylde area and parents did ask me who they should send their kids to if given a choice. Of course I did try to big up PNE but I had to admit that the set up at Rovers was better. Although I have the utmost respect for the PNE coaches and applaud their achievements, what they can achieve is limited by budget and facilities, which are in fact better than many clubs offer, but can not compete with Prem and former Prem clubs offerings. Aspiring young footballers will always be attracted to clubs with the profile, recent pedigree and the percieved idea that they will be playing with the best in their age group, not second choices.
 
Bobbage said:
I'll be honest, I had a proper epiphany in the first half v WBA.

I was already disheartened at us playing our u17s that morning and getting thrashed v Rotherham. But by 15:30 I'd turned off, wasn't fussed, didn't really bother with the pseudo u21s on Monday and decided I'm going to watch Colwyn Bay vs Ruthin on Friday to see if I enjoy a bit of [tbh Conference North standard] local football instead.
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Yeah, and it makes perfect sense.

I'm a Preston North End fan, but specifically, I'm a fan of the first team. I'm not interested in the various youth teams with PNE in the name, except insofar as they can benefit the first team, which I do support.

For many years now - since Ridsdale and Westley arrived and degraded them - those youth teams have hardly benefited the first team at all. Meanwhile I couldn't really care less how well they're doing against L1/L2 academy teams, or how many trophies they win at that level - although I'm sure it's nice for people who do care about such things. I'm effectively a neutral in that context.

But I do have an interest in the strength of the academy - because right now, it doesn't benefit the first team, but it should, and the only way it ever will is through much better investment.
 
Thracia said:
Yeah, and it makes perfect sense.

I'm a Preston North End fan, but specifically, I'm a fan of the first team. I'm not interested in the various youth teams with PNE in the name, except insofar as they can benefit the first team, which I do support.

For many years now - since Ridsdale and Westley arrived and degraded them - those youth teams have hardly benefited the first team at all. Meanwhile I couldn't really care less how well they're doing against L1/L2 academy teams, or how many trophies they win at that level - although I'm sure it's nice for people who do care about such things. I'm effectively a neutral in that context.

But I do have an interest in the strength of the academy - because right now, it doesn't benefit the first team, but it should, and the only way it ever will is through much better investment.
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That investment though is not going to happen with the present regime in charge,as we have heard from CH himself.
The budget that is set by the trustees in the IoM covers everything from floodlighting, ground maintenance, Transfer fee' s etc etc....the academy is probably pretty low down the list for expenditure,if it's on the list at all....🤔😡
 
Wisemen say said:
That investment though is not going to happen with the present regime in charge,as we have heard from CH himself.
The budget that is set by the trustees in the IoM covers everything from floodlighting, ground maintenance, Transfer fee' s etc etc....the academy is probably pretty low down the list for expenditure,if it's on the list at all....🤔😡
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Yeah, I know - but I am still interested in strengthening it.
 
Man online said:
I know a lot of talk has gone on about the lack of players making it from our youth set up to first team football.
Do you not think it’s time to scrap our youth set up all together?
The very best players always get taken by big clubs (Utd, City etc) and the percentage of players at any club at that actually make it is very little.
Would the money be better spent on setting up an under 23 squad only. Picking up players released from the clubs in North West (again City, Utd, Liverpool etc) finding gems that get missed plus getting lower league up and coming players for it.
It would also expand our first team squad as these players don’t count to the 25man EFL squad.
The cost of running a Youth set up is quite a lot for the amount of players that actually make the first team.
Brentford did this some years ago because they decided they were surrounded by bigger clubs in London and couldn’t compete for the best young players in the area a bit like we can’t with all the grade one academy’s around us.
Click to expand...
This is exactly what Huddersfield did and its really working for them ....
 
Thracia said:
Yeah, I know - but I am still interested in strengthening it.
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I like the idea of having an effective production line of players coming through.

What I don’t really know is how likely the investment in upgrading the academy is likely to be rewarded. Say we upgrade to cat 2, what is the benchmark for producing championship ready talent? What do other clubs achieve? Could we realistically hope to both benefit from these good young players on the pitch and then flip them after a couple of years for big money at a rate that would covers the academy costs and leave money left over for transfer / salary use?

The idea of picking up older cast-offs or bargains and developing them further is also worth considering, a la Browne / Brownhill who were both brought into the first team squad at a young age and are unarguably successful championship level players. Would a more serious and considered approach to sign these sort of players be a better use of academy resources (if they were to become available).

I just don’t really have any concept of how likely these options are to succeed as other than “I’d like the club to develop youth” I’ve not seen any serious analysis of whether either would be truly worth it. (Ie would at least break even financially and ideally a lot better than that).
 
Thracia said:
Yeah, I think an academy is mandatory in the Prem, which is why Brentford had to restart theirs after promotion.

Not a problem we'd be having.

But I think if we scrapped our academy we wouldn't put in place a replacement means of developing footballers, such as U23s - I think we'd just bank the savings.
Click to expand...

“Do you want an U23’s team or a jet washed stadium?”
 
simo said:
I like the idea of having an effective production line of players coming through.

What I don’t really know is how likely the investment in upgrading the academy is likely to be rewarded. Say we upgrade to cat 2, what is the benchmark for producing championship ready talent? What do other clubs achieve? Could we realistically hope to both benefit from these good young players on the pitch and then flip them after a couple of years for big money at a rate that would covers the academy costs and leave money left over for transfer / salary use?

The idea of picking up older cast-offs or bargains and developing them further is also worth considering, a la Browne / Brownhill who were both brought into the first team squad at a young age and are unarguably successful championship level players. Would a more serious and considered approach to sign these sort of players be a better use of academy resources (if they were to become available).

I just don’t really have any concept of how likely these options are to succeed as other than “I’d like the club to develop youth” I’ve not seen any serious analysis of whether either would be truly worth it. (Ie would at least break even financially and ideally a lot better than that).
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Exactly this.
Our best players that have made an impact at championship level for us or other teams in recent years that have come out of our youth set up have actually only been signed older (16) after being released by bigger clubs or signed from smaller. I think only Ben Davies actually came all the way through. Browne, Brownhill, Dolan etc where brought in at 16/17.
 
Man online said:
Exactly this.
Our best players that have made an impact at championship level for us or other teams in recent years that have come out of our youth set up have actually only been signed older (16) after being released by bigger clubs or signed from smaller. I think only Ben Davies actually came all the way through. Browne, Brownhill, Dolan etc where brought in at 16/17.
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Kian Best, Kitt Nelson and Kacper Pasiek have all been in recent matchday squads and been with us since the u9s.
 
How does our youth system compare to similar sized clubs, I bet we are way down the list, probably bottom.
 
Bobbage said:
Kian Best, Kitt Nelson and Kacper Pasiek have all been in recent matchday squads and been with us since the u9s.
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I meant make there mark at least at championship level.
It’s yet to be seen if they make it at this level.
Along with the Mawenes I hope they all do.
 
Man online said:
I meant make there mark at least at championship level.
It’s yet to be seen if they make it at this level.
Along with the Mawenes I hope they all do.
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The likes of Ben Davies, Bailey Wright and Alan Browne would not have made it here if they'd started out at Championship level.

But you are dismissing three players there who have come through our ranks and made our recent Championship squads before they're 20...

Noah Mawene will be in that discussion next year too.
 
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